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kevJ420
03-03-07, 09:03 PM
Help with this would be greatly appreciated. I get a different answer from everyone, everywhere.

Yes, I know what z-culling does. Yes, I know what the W-buffer is.

Anyways, a lot of the games I love use the W-buffer which I also love.

So they have problems on 8800 GTXs. The problems are, in fact z-fighting artifacts.

So I've been told:

from nvidia customer care (who I believe): that the 8800gtx does not have the transistors for the w-buffer. They said that the z-cull being moved ahead in the rendering process would might cause issues when the w-buffer is called for.

from the guy who made rivatuner: that the w-buffer always has been there, and that it still is. [refused to answer my question and told me not to misuse GPU terms.]

various people: many different things, both sides.

So, I was wondering if the z-fighting artifacts will go away if all 4 of these conditions are true:
1. I use Riva Tuner
2. I disable z-compression in Riva Tuner.
3. I disable z-cull in Riva Tuner.
4. The 8800 GTX driver currently DOES force z-culling

jAkUp
03-03-07, 09:06 PM
Do you have any screenshots? I don't notice any clipping, or Z-buffer abnormality, and I've owned every GeForce card since the GeForce4 series.

Blacklash
03-03-07, 09:14 PM
Try asking here Kev:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13

Because I sure don't know :p Which games and in what environment might I try to witness this?

|MaguS|
03-03-07, 10:47 PM
Nvidia has Customer Care?

kevJ420
03-04-07, 08:42 AM
beyond good & evil. Thanks for answering me back ,but I'm actually SOL.

Blacklash
03-04-07, 04:14 PM
beyond good & evil. Thanks for answering me back ,but I'm actually SOL.

Beyond good and evil, got it.

Now could you be a little more specific about the environment and conditions in said game when it happens? Example; I was in room A in area B and this was occurring. If I try it I'd like to be able to witness it as quickly and easily as possible. You've got me interested.

There's the demo download if some people want to grab it to look for odd behavior:

http://files.filefront.com/Updated+Beyond+Good+and+Evil+Demo/;1103410;;/fileinfo.html

kevJ420
03-05-07, 12:27 PM
Beyond good and evil, got it.

Now could you be a little more specific about the environment and conditions in said game when it happens? Example; I was in room A in area B and this was occurring. If I try it I'd like to be able to witness it as quickly and easily as possible. You've got me interested.

There's the demo download if some people want to grab it to look for odd behavior:

http://files.filefront.com/Updated+Beyond+Good+and+Evil+Demo/;1103410;;/fileinfo.html

Thanks. There's major slowdown when traveling by water and the artifacts are major artifacts.

|MaguS|
03-05-07, 12:42 PM
Thanks. There's major slowdown when traveling by water and the artifacts are major artifacts.

Yeah I get horrible artifacting in the game aswell but I think its more of a driver issue then anything else. The games engine wasn't the greatest after all, it didn't even support AA at high resolutions.

kevJ420
03-05-07, 01:27 PM
I think you're right.

This really needs to be fixed.

I haven't tried any other games that used the W-buffer yet but when I do, I'll turn to nvidia customer care and see what they can do, if the games exhibit artifacting. (yes, I know, I'm beginning to sound quite obsessive about the W-buffer, but I deeply want all of my old games to work and look perfectly on all current and future hardware, as they would on a Geforce 4 Ti.)

Anyways, this Beyond Good and Evil problem is a very common problem to people, I've heard.

|MaguS|
03-05-07, 01:48 PM
It's not a W-Buffer issue, The Longest Journey uses it and looks just fine.

kevJ420
03-05-07, 04:55 PM
You're right.

I've kind of thought about it now, and I think hardware prior to the 8800's didn't have hardware support for it either, and Enter the Matrix and Rayman 3 didn't have problems w/ my now-deceased 6800gt. I guess the Geforce FX was either the 1st to not have it or the last to not have it. They wouldn't have removed it if old games needed it, coming to think about it.

However, we do all need to send nvidia customer care the bug report about BG&E, so they can fix it.

Beyond Good & Evil is actually considered a masterpiece. I think everything Michel Ancel has done is quite perfect, except Raving Rabbids.

SJA06
03-07-07, 02:08 PM
Regarding artifacting and slowdown on 'Beyond Good & Evil' try setting the 'prerender limit' to below the default 3.

I get above issues on a 7600gt and set it to 1 to get it to work properly...no idea if this will effect 8800's.

Blacklash
03-07-07, 04:14 PM
I tried the demo and got odd behavior in fight scenes with a ton of effects going off, otherwise it was fine.

kevJ420
03-07-07, 04:25 PM
I tried the demo and got odd behavior in fight scenes with a ton of effects going off, otherwise it was fine.

Thank you. That still needs to be fixed. Send a bug report to nvidia, if it's convenient for you.

Xion X2
03-07-07, 06:13 PM
I get the slowdown, along with artifacting, that he's talking about w/ Beyond Good & Evil, but the rest of the game plays great.

That game has always had the slowdown when you were in the boat on the water, though, from my recollection. Are you sure that's not just an engine limitation?

When I rode through the city at the beginning past Mamago's Garage.. can't remember the name.. Helys(?), maybe? I got the flickering textures. Figured it was just a driver issue.

BG&E is still an awesome game, but I can't help to notice how dated it looks now. But the art in the game is what keeps it alive, along with the music/story. Still a classic.

Da Mammago Garage.. you know.. where your mamma won't go you go... :D

kevJ420
03-07-07, 06:26 PM
I get the slowdown, along with artifacting, that he's talking about w/ Beyond Good & Evil, but the rest of the game plays great.

That game has always had the slowdown when you were in the boat on the water, though, from my recollection. Are you sure that's not just an engine limitation?

When I rode through the city at the beginning past Mamago's Garage.. can't remember the name.. Helys(?), maybe? I got the flickering textures. Figured it was just a driver issue.

BG&E is still an awesome game, but I can't help to notice how dated it looks now. But the art in the game is what keeps it alive, along with the music/story. Still a classic.

Da Mammago Garage.. you know.. where your mamma won't go you go... :D

I think that ruins the whole game. It should run perfectly. There's still something wrong even if it's just a small part of the game. Why not have it run perfectly? You should always want the very best and nothing less=)

It ran fine on the 66.93 drivers, but nothing any later than that. We should notify nvidia of that and then they would know exactly what to do.

However, the fix the person above recommended might work for everyone on an 8800gtx, but if it doesn't work for everyone, then we should let nv Customer Care know.

Xion X2
03-07-07, 11:44 PM
Then let them know. It's a 3+ year old game and so it's not killing me that it doesn't run perfectly on a brand new video card. That's often the case with new hardware.

SJA06
03-08-07, 04:53 AM
Strange...I just tries to take a screen to show the artifacting I get with BG&E with a prerender of 3, but they dissapear in the process. They also go away when recording a movie.

Can anyone else reproduce them in a screen or movie? or get rid of them by lowering their prerender limit?..

firehawk
03-08-07, 04:32 PM
beyond good and evil has been broken on nvidia cards for along time. the water "bug" showed up around the launch of the 7800 if i remember correctly.


i email ubisoft and nvidia about the issue before.ubi doesn't want to support the game anymore and nvidia just gave me the standard "sorry" reply

swaaye
03-09-07, 04:08 PM
Can't expect them to support things that only 1% of their customers might use. Tragic but it's just how it is.

There are SO many bugs they have to workaround. It's the name of the game with PC gaming. That's why it's only NV & ATI in the market. They are the only companies that can cope with the driver issues because they have the man power and money.

Right now they are probably most concerned with 1) Vista drivers 2) their next generation prototype stuff 3) beating up R600 in a couple months. Supporting years-old software is rather low on the list, I imagine.

kevJ420
03-09-07, 04:21 PM
Can't expect them to support things that only 1% of their customers might use. Tragic but it's just how it is.

There are SO many bugs they have to workaround. It's the name of the game with PC gaming. That's why it's only NV & ATI in the market. They are the only companies that can cope with the driver issues because they have the man power and money.

Right now they are probably most concerned with 1) Vista drivers 2) their next generation prototype stuff 3) beating up R600 in a couple months. Supporting years-old software is rather low on the list, I imagine.

Thanks for responding.
However, I think companies should try to please every customer eventually. They should fix more important issues 1st, but before the world ends, I want BG&E to run perfectly on the newest NV HW at that time.

Also, it's considered a favorite on Gametap and a TWIMTBP game.

Tibbar
03-17-07, 09:27 PM
I also have flickering problems and bad geometry artifacts with Beyond Good & Evil with a 7600 GT under Windows Vista. But I've found a workaround. If you run the SettingsApplication.exe program in the game folder, select the Advanced Settings Tab and choose Manual compatibility settings. These seem to be the only settings that make a difference as far as I can tell.

Uncheck HW Vertex Processing: this gets rid of the weird geometry artifacts at the cost of framerate

Turn off Antialiasing: this cures sound stuttering with my integrated ALC882 HD Audio

Without hardware vertex processing, of course the game feels much more laggy and seems to be dependent a lot on resolution. So I lowered the resolution but retained the flare, shadow, and water effects with reasonable playability.

SJA06
03-18-07, 09:59 AM
I also have flickering problems and bad geometry artifacts with Beyond Good & Evil with a 7600 GT under Windows Vista. But I've found a workaround. If you run the SettingsApplication.exe program in the game folder, select the Advanced Settings Tab and choose Manual compatibility settings. These seem to be the only settings that make a difference as far as I can tell.

Uncheck HW Vertex Processing: this gets rid of the weird geometry artifacts at the cost of framerate

Turn off Antialiasing: this cures sound stuttering with my integrated ALC882 HD Audio

Without hardware vertex processing, of course the game feels much more laggy and seems to be dependent a lot on resolution. So I lowered the resolution but retained the flare, shadow, and water effects with reasonable playability.

As I posted TWICE above [no one seem bothered to even try it] is to lower the prerender limit to 1, you can do it in Rivatuner or with coolbits, through the driver CP.

This way you don't have to turn anything off. No flickering, no artifacts and great frame rates.

Certainly works on a 7600gt.

Tibbar
03-21-07, 11:22 AM
SJA06:

I should've mentioned that I tried to lower the pre render limit to 1 without success. Riva Tuner doesn't work at all with Windows Vista, and the other one I tried, nvHardPage, also claimed that it was incompatible with my current Vista drivers, though it did offer me the option to change the Pre Render limit. No positive effects on the artifacts except much choppier. What graphics card tool do you recommend for Vista?

Very strange since I also have a BFG 7600 GT OC ed.

Something else peculiar:
I tried the game on a Windows XP machine with an EVGA 7600 GT (w/latest drivers) and there were no graphics glitches.

|MaguS|
03-23-07, 08:57 AM
As I posted TWICE above [no one seem bothered to even try it] is to lower the prerender limit to 1, you can do it in Rivatuner or with coolbits, through the driver CP.

This way you don't have to turn anything off. No flickering, no artifacts and great frame rates.

Certainly works on a 7600gt.

Thanks so much man! Game works perfectly now. :D