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Zelda_fan
03-08-07, 11:56 AM
http://wii.ign.com/articles/771/771051p1.html

So don't say I never posted anything negative towards the Wii.

Although I completely disagree with what this guy says. Twilight Princess has more art in it than spore + anything you've previously designed combined. Ninteno is all about art in games. They always have been. It seems like this guy is just frustrated he won't be able to port his game spore easily to the Wii.

saturnotaku
03-08-07, 12:01 PM
Waitaminute...isn't Spore coming out on the DS in addition to the PC?

Ninjaman09
03-08-07, 12:04 PM
I dunno I guess I see what he's saying, but honestly have any of these experimental "super-duper AI" games every really amounted to anything? I mean, I remember eating up all the hype when Black and White came out, and while the concept was still great, the game itself was severely lacking.

Zelda_fan
03-08-07, 12:13 PM
I dunno I guess I see what he's saying, but honestly have any of these experimental "super-duper AI" games every really amounted to anything? I mean, I remember eating up all the hype when Black and White came out, and while the concept was still great, the game itself was severely lacking.

I agree completely. Spore will defiantly jump to new heights concerning procedural animation and AI, but when it comes down to it it will probably be a pretty dull boring game. A good game (in my opinion) is one that draws out an emotional response from you. Historically Nintendo has published the majority of these game for me at least. Chrono Trigger, Legend of Zelda, Super Mario RPG, etc. Procedural generation is neat and all, but how is it going to draw out an emotional response from me?

H3avyM3tal
03-08-07, 12:24 PM
I dunno I guess I see what he's saying, but honestly have any of these experimental "super-duper AI" games every really amounted to anything? I mean, I remember eating up all the hype when Black and White came out, and while the concept was still great, the game itself was severely lacking.

So what? No point in trying? No need to push forward? What would our games would look today without games like TA, MGS, GT, FC and the likes?

Sony and Microsoft both keep pushing forward on all fronts, and while Nintendo does seem to try and push forward, controls arent the only means to make a game fun. All they did was make a new controling scheme - they arent trying to go along with the times. If only they would make something more powerful to go with their innovative controller...

Zelda_fan
03-08-07, 12:40 PM
So what? No point in trying? No need to push forward? What would our games would look today without games like TA, MGS, GT, FC and the likes?

Sony and Microsoft both keep pushing forward on all fronts, and while Nintendo does seem to try and push forward, controls arent the only means to make a game fun. All they did was make a new controling scheme - they arent trying to go along with the times. If only they would make something more powerful to go with their innovative controller...

His point is that a lot of what the devs say is "pushing forward" don't really add to the fun factor in games at all.

H3avyM3tal
03-08-07, 12:44 PM
Why not? What happened when we got the awesome AI in FEAR for example?
Devs have to push forward, and stuff they make doesnt hit the mark the first time around. Thats why we push forward all the time, on all fronts. To get better results.

Lyme
03-08-07, 12:47 PM
Amazing graphics, textures, motion, ai, super high resolutions, True HD sound, etc.. do not make a good game.

You need:
-Something fun.
-Sometimes a good plot.

Which is why things like bomberman64 are better than bomberman act zero, and zelda games are engaging. Take Geometry Wars, it is a really fun game.

If you need graphics, and action, and sound.. watch the movie Stealth, it has those and isn't a good movie either.

H3avyM3tal
03-08-07, 01:07 PM
Amazing graphics, textures, motion, ai, super high resolutions, True HD sound, etc.. do not make a good game.

You need:
-Something fun.
-Sometimes a good plot.

Which is why things like bomberman64 are better than bomberman act zero, and zelda games are engaging. Take Geometry Wars, it is a really fun game.

If you need graphics, and action, and sound.. watch the movie Stealth, it has those and isn't a good movie either.

Sounds like you need to read books, not play video games ;)
BTW, that FEAR comment I made was just an example. Doesnt mean my most loved genre of games are not rpgs :)

kev13dd
03-08-07, 01:10 PM
Amazing graphics, textures, motion, ai, super high resolutions, True HD sound, etc.. do not make a good game.

You need:
-Something fun.
-Sometimes a good plot.

Which is why things like bomberman64 are better than bomberman act zero, and zelda games are engaging. Take Geometry Wars, it is a really fun game.

If you need graphics, and action, and sound.. watch the movie Stealth, it has those and isn't a good movie either.
People who use this argument make it sound like it's impossible to have a fun game that has the "graphics action and sound" too. Which is wrong. There is a huge possibility for game to be fun and look next gen in all other aspects

Minesweepers is my all time favorite game- it has no sound except for the music I play with it, the graphics are literally from the 90s version (I dislike the new Vista one) and it's gameplay involves other right clicking, or left clicking. But as much as I love minesweeper, I could not stand it if developers ONLY developed games like that. I need games like Gears and Doom and Madden. None of those games would be the same for me unless they had the beautiful graphics and sound

Point is, developers (of both console and games) needs to go forward on ALL fronts. Would the Wii be any less enjoyable if it had better graphics? No. Fact is, Nintendo wanted to keep the console cheaper so they kept the graphics power at a "not too bad" level. This makes sense for selling consoles and making them profit, but it also holds development back. People can say "baby steps" and "gotta nail down gameplay before you can go forward" but in my opinion, you can do both at once

While "pushing forward" might not guarentee the game to be fun, pushing forward is what has made the game industry what it is, and it needs to keep happening

K

Zelda_fan
03-08-07, 01:14 PM
Point is, developers (of both console and games) needs to go forward on ALL fronts. Would the Wii be any less enjoyable if it had better graphics? No. Fact is, Nintendo wanted to keep the console cheaper so they kept the graphics power at a "not too bad" level. This makes sense for selling consoles and making them profit, but it also holds development back. People can say "baby steps" and "gotta nail down gameplay before you can go forward" but in my opinion, you can do both at once


I actually disagree with this. An XBOX360 game has to achieve a certain standard of graphical design otherwise it would be shunned. As a result of this the dev team is forced to put way too much focus on the graphics which takes away focus from polishing the game up and making it fun.

Ninjaman09
03-08-07, 01:27 PM
Why not? What happened when we got the awesome AI in FEAR for example?
Devs have to push forward, and stuff they make doesnt hit the mark the first time around. Thats why we push forward all the time, on all fronts. To get better results.
I didn't say not to push forward. I said the guy is criticizing Nintendo with highly speculative and rhetorical comments about these "super AI" games that up until now have continually disappointed in the gameplay department. I though B&W's AI was amazing and spent hours screwing around with it but at the end of the day its characteristics as a GAME were very lacking.

Not saying it can't be done and I have high hopes for Spore, but to attack Nintendo for supposedly not providing sufficient hardware for complex AI routines seems a little premature given it isn't even defined what would be necessary for such games to exist yet.

H3avyM3tal
03-08-07, 01:29 PM
I actually disagree with this. An XBOX360 game has to achieve a certain standard of graphical design otherwise it would be shunned. As a result of this the dev team is forced to put way too much focus on the graphics which takes away focus from polishing the game up and making it fun.

But we do get awesome looking games which are fun. Im sure games like Gears, Forza2 and the likes are and will be alot fun. It all depends on the developer. If they have talent and skills, they will get the job done.

Its not ALL about graphics you know... But we do have the video in viode games: Meaning we want and like visual stimulation too. Otherwise we should, like I said, read a book.

kevJ420
03-08-07, 01:39 PM
This was EXACTLY what I had been saying all along.

Nintendo sucks because they refuse to offer competent technology.

They have always treated there 3rd parties like ****.

A game cannot be fun without enjoyable and good technology which does not include a radically different controller.

The graphics and everything else are a helluva lot more important than that wiimote, as of who's novelty is very limited and will end very soon.

H3avyM3tal
03-08-07, 01:54 PM
Why do we always get someone to ruin somthing that can be considered a normal debate?

thor1182
03-08-07, 01:55 PM
the joys of the interwebz

Ninjaman09
03-08-07, 01:55 PM
A game cannot be fun without enjoyable and good technology which does not include a radically different controller.

The graphics and everything else are a helluva lot more important than that wiimote, as of who's novelty is very limited and will end very soon.
That's pretty subjective, and your prediction flies in the face of current sales figures. ;)

Monolyth
03-08-07, 02:06 PM
I seem to remember back in my youth that I would go out to the lot next to our house with an aluminum bat and pretend it was my *deep breath* rocket launcher, grenade launcher, laser rifle, chain gun (thank you predator!), sword, staff, machine gun, sniper rifle, golf club, etc.

Enjoying your 'play' in a game has more to do with your personality then any graphics, controller, or interface. It's the very feeling of enjoyment from a game that makes it worthwhile to you. It will be different for every person, be thankful we have so many options nowadays, otherwise I might still be playing with my bat.

Zelda_fan
03-08-07, 02:09 PM
This was EXACTLY what I had been saying all along.

Nintendo sucks because they refuse to offer competent technology.

They have always treated there 3rd parties like ****.

A game cannot be fun without enjoyable and good technology which does not include a radically different controller.

The graphics and everything else are a helluva lot more important than that wiimote, as of who's novelty is very limited and will end very soon.

omg....

H3avyM3tal
03-08-07, 02:09 PM
I didn't say not to push forward. I said the guy is criticizing Nintendo with highly speculative and rhetorical comments about these "super AI" games that up until now have continually disappointed in the gameplay department. I though B&W's AI was amazing and spent hours screwing around with it but at the end of the day its characteristics as a GAME were very lacking.

Not saying it can't be done and I have high hopes for Spore, but to attack Nintendo for supposedly not providing sufficient hardware for complex AI routines seems a little premature given it isn't even defined what would be necessary for such games to exist yet.

True. But my point was that these things have to evolve. Graphics are the easiest thing to improve, cuz thats what we notice on the spot. But that doeant mean we should stop improving it. Gameplay is alot harder to improve. However, AI and powerful tech to support it ARE part of it.

Take for example SW:The Force Unleashed. The new physics engine and all the other techno mumbo-jumbo I have no knoledge in - gives us improved gameplay. AI that thinks for itself, believable destructive enviros.

Most of the industry strives to make games as believable as possible, cuz thats when it really shines. It becomes possible. Movies are the best possible example to believeble I can think of. The visual experience is what makes the descisive diffrence.

For example, what would some of you think of LoTR, had it been done in a cartoon look, instead of its real-life look?

Zelda, pls kick kevpla in the nuts.

ViN86
03-08-07, 02:12 PM
http://wii.ign.com/articles/771/771051p1.html

So don't say I never posted anything negative towards the Wii.

Although I completely disagree with what this guy says. Twilight Princess has more art in it than spore + anything you've previously designed combined. Ninteno is all about art in games. They always have been. It seems like this guy is just frustrated he won't be able to port his game spore easily to the Wii.
i think the guy is full of **** too. the Wii wasnt designed to be a nextgen console hardware-wise, it was designed to revolutionize the way people play games.

if he cant port his game to it, tough ****. as long as you make it fun and dont downgrade the graphics too much, im sure Wii owners wont care.

So what? No point in trying? No need to push forward? What would our games would look today without games like TA, MGS, GT, FC and the likes?

Sony and Microsoft both keep pushing forward on all fronts, and while Nintendo does seem to try and push forward, controls arent the only means to make a game fun. All they did was make a new controling scheme - they arent trying to go along with the times. If only they would make something more powerful to go with their innovative controller...
that may be, but you have to admire their ability to generate a profit with minimal technology leaps.

kevJ420
03-08-07, 02:21 PM
That's pretty subjective, and your prediction flies in the face of current sales figures. ;)

That's true. I never thought of that. But keep in mind that the experts (as well as me, even though I'm a retard) do think the PlayStation 3 will come out on top when the price goes down. Scott Miller said that the Wii will be Nintendo's last console. I think he's right.

As the title of this thread indicates, few 3rd parties are going to support the Wii once the PS3 reaches the masses.

Nintendo's own titles definately aren't going to make them #1 in market share. They didn't with Nintendo 64 and they had Rare, they had some 3rd party help and tech power w/ the GC and they weren't the winner in that war, and history will repeat itself, except only this time they'll have neither the 3rd party support nor the tech power that the Gamecube had.

Keep in mind this is the dawn of the generation we're currently in. We have at least 3 more years ahead of us.

Zelda_fan
03-08-07, 02:23 PM
i think the guy is full of **** too. the Wii wasnt designed to be a nextgen console hardware-wise, it was designed to revolutionize the way people play games.

if he cant port his game to it, tough ****. as long as you make it fun and dont downgrade the graphics too much, im sure Wii owners wont care.



The thing is, Spore's "fun factor" revolves around it's next-gen procedural AI and procedural graphics (in my opinion that's a terrible thing to base a game's fun on). So if the Wii can't handle it, they'll have to dumb it down taking away from the game's fun.

Heh. I'll just buy spore for the 360, that *IS* what I bought a 360 for. I bought the Wii for other games such as Zelda, Batillion Wars, Paper Mario, Mario Galexy, etc.

Zelda_fan
03-08-07, 02:25 PM
That's true. I never thought of that. But keep in mind that the experts (as well as me, even though I'm a retard) do think the PlayStation 3 will come out on top when the price goes down. Scott Miller said that the Wii will be Nintendo's last console. I think he's right.


Who is this mythical tribunal of "console experts" you are referring to? From every report I've heard, the Wii is going to steamroll through the next-gen sales wise.

Monolyth
03-08-07, 02:36 PM
Nintendo's last console...

Well that could be true, but look at it this way, they are making a tidy profit on the Wii right now (in both game and system sales). 2-4 years down the line the Wii2 is released w/HD and an HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drive on the cheap, and they are set for another 2-4 years. Same basic technology better looks and support for high-def content.

Instead of becoming 'media centers' like Sony & MS have chosen, they keep the Wii basic in terms of features and adopt the technologies a couple years behind, but continue to capture the most important demo graph - middle to lower income families/individuals.