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View Full Version : Official WHQL DX9 Detonators = nVidia between a rock and a hard place!


digitalwanderer
03-16-03, 01:45 PM
Not a flame damn it, this is NOT a flame!!!!

I've been worried that nVidia is going to be able to just shuffle the whole performance difference between the review drivers and the 43.00 driver set right under the rug no matter how many fansites howl about it. I must admit that there is no good reason for it, but it makes me angry and I rankled a bit and the unfairness of it.

But Kyle Bennet passed along a signifigant insite over in a Rage3D post (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=1331815685#post1331815685) to me that got rid of almost all my mad-on at nVidia lately and darn near got me feeling sympathetic for them.

They have to release a set of WHQL certified DX9 drivers or the OEM manufacturers won't touch them...which would be financial suicide for nVidia. (Well, in this round of the video card wars at least...I don't wanna fight about how big they are today. ;) )

My new question is WHEN? When does nVidia gotta have some WHQL DX9 drivers out by before it really hurts them?

I think the last WHQL set they put out was Dec 3rd, so I think they're getting a bit overdue....

muzz
03-16-03, 02:44 PM
I wonder if they are going to wait until or right B4 the NV35 release.
We shall see.

digitalwanderer
03-16-03, 04:23 PM
I'm betting they won't release them until they absolutely have to and not one second before. ;)

Orlando
03-17-03, 12:18 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the heads-up.

digitalwanderer
03-17-03, 01:09 PM
No prob. If you want to see a bit more about it I'll be honest and admit I double-posted this thread over at Rage3D (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33673204&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) since I knew a number of people over there would be interested. (And I also figured it would keep the flamers/ATI-celebrating/nVidia-bashers out of here a bit if we all had our own place to high-five each other and such. ;) )

Funny thing....I posted 'em within 5 minutes of each other I think and these are the stats so far:

nVnews Post=3 replies, 355 views
Rage3d Post=61 replies, 1986 views

We got an actual nVidiot in that thread sticking up for it though, so that tends to get things a bit livelied up in a hurry. ('Specially over there. A very brave but foolish person... ;) )

I mean nothing by the stats, I just found 'em interesting for some reason. (I'm weird that way. :rolleyes: )

It's the second spring day out here in my bit of the world, I think I'm gonna do something weird and go frolic under the Daystar for a bit.......

Red Dog
03-17-03, 03:53 PM
as an Nvidiot I must say Nvidia's drivers have sucked for a number of months now.

the whole "sacrifice IQ for speed" issue is exactly what we flamed ATI for a year ago.

I never thought Nvidia would stoop to this marketing driven b.s. and I'd be lying if I said it didnt place a pretty big chip on my shoulder.

I pre-ordered my 9800pro and Nvidia will have to walk on water with nv35 if they want my attention.

I really want Nvidia to do a complete turn around and pull their heads out of their arse.

everyone quotes carmac ,"nvidia drivers are the gold standard"

well I submit that statement was made quite some time ago and Nvidia has faltered while ATI has made huge strides.

I love nvidia but the marketing machine is rotting it from the inside out.

Red Dog
03-17-03, 05:04 PM
http://www.gamersdepot.com/interviews/ati/richard_huddy/001.htm


16-bit Hackery:
GamersDepot has an interview with Richard Huddy of ATI. He is head of European DevRel (Developers Relations). The entire interview is worth the read but this question really got my attention. This in direct reference to NVIDIA's v42.xx series of Detonator being "broken".


GD: In your address to the people at the "Title Club" event, you made reference to "16-bit hackery". It's quite obvious you were referring to NVIDIA's latest drivers they put out for 3DMark. Would you care to elaborate more on this?

RH: NVIDIA have taken the DX9 spec and 'interpreted it' in a way that I believe was never intended. Instead of using full floating point precision throughout the graphics pipeline they've cut corners in an attempt to gain access to greater speed. But this approach has left them with a difficult message.

Red Dog
03-17-03, 05:17 PM
my favorite quote from the article,

"Because there can be no let up here... As soon as you relax, or assume that you have some God-given right to lead the market, then you deserve the humiliating fate that will be waiting for you."


and this one,

That's why ATI was able to release WHQL certified DirectX 9 drivers on the same day that Microsoft released DirectX 9. At the time of writing (March 2003), to the best of my knowledge, no other company has a WHQL certified DirectX 9 driver. Put simply, that's because no other company has the same commitment to quality and leadership that ATI has.

ouch this hurts,

"Their tag line is "Cinematic rendering" - but they can't offer that because if they try then their hardware is way too slow... And when they offer a 16 bit compromised solution it has so many artifacts that it clearly won't be acceptable to anyone who wants to use it for general DX9 gaming... That doesn't seem like a great choice does it? "Pretty but slow", or "fast and ugly"."

Woodelf
03-17-03, 09:49 PM
OMG, that was harsh..
I honestly hope they get it together, and soon.
Every time they try to justify nv30, they just end up looking worse.

walkndude
03-17-03, 10:23 PM
Maybe people dont bite on posts like red dog's here as easily...

Red Dog
03-18-03, 12:15 AM
well, lets see. ole red dog has owned,

ati rage pro
3dfx v3500
tnt 2ultra
gf1
gf2
gf3 (that i smoked with a pelt)
gf3 ti 500
gf4 ti 4600

as you can see I really am an Nvidiot. hell Ive even tried every single driver revision. used to look forward to them.

I want to believe in nvidia, I just dont trust them after the "are you ready" b.s. marketing and questionable driver related issues.

I fault the corp's CEO, not its highly talented employees.

I have no doubt NV will bounce back with a vengance.

only thing is they will have to show me first, It will be a long time again before I believe NV pr. especially under the current ceo.

when my 98pro arrives its going in my A7N8X Deluxe's agp8x slot and Ill still be an Nvidiot.

God Bless the worlds people.

5Ht
03-19-03, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer

I think the last WHQL set they put out was Dec 3rd, so I think they're getting a bit overdue....

It was actually Nov 8th (on nvidia's site that is). The set in Dec were a "WHQL candidate"

dropper
03-21-03, 05:32 PM
I love how some ATI rep states his opinions about something, everyone takes it as gospel, yet when NVIDIA does it, it's just PR BS.

One thing that gets me, he complains about the 16-bit rendering vs. 32-bit (cinematic) and aren't they only 24-bit? Let's see how their card would perform if it had to hack out some 32-bit accurate stuff?

Keith

Please note: I could be completely off base with this.

Nazgul
03-25-03, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by dropper
I love how some ATI rep states his opinions about something, everyone takes it as gospel, yet when NVIDIA does it, it's just PR BS.

One thing that gets me, he complains about the 16-bit rendering vs. 32-bit (cinematic) and aren't they only 24-bit? Let's see how their card would perform if it had to hack out some 32-bit accurate stuff?

Keith

Please note: I could be completely off base with this.

I believe his point was that Nvidia was tooting its horn about FP32 support and "cinematic rendering", yet when push comes to shove they're trying to push FP16 for actual use because FP32 ends up being too slow to be useful.

As for FP24 and whether or not that's "good enough", it's apparently good enough to meet the requirements for DX9. And no matter what your opinion of MS is, sticking straight to the DX9 spec was probably the smartest thing for ATI to do. Besides, I think you'd find that if you looked at renderings done with FP16, FP24 and FP32, you'd find a more noticeable difference in image quality between FP16 and FP24 than you would between FP24 and FP32. When we get to a point where insanely long shaders become commonplace at very high resolutions, then precision beyond FP24 will become more important. But lets face it, few of us will still have R300's or NV30's by then :)

digitalwanderer
03-25-03, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Nazgul
I believe his point was that Nvidia was tooting its horn about FP32 support and "cinematic rendering", yet when push comes to shove they're trying to push FP16 for actual use because FP32 ends up being too slow to be useful.

Woo-hoo! Another one who gets it!!

Yup, you got the nail on the head I believe.


Does ANYONE know if the new DX9a is still 24FP? I'm really curious.

ChrisRay
03-25-03, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Woo-hoo! Another one who gets it!!

Yup, you got the nail on the head I believe.


Does ANYONE know if the new DX9a is still 24FP? I'm really curious.


Are you that eager to see Nvidia fail? I'm sure the information will come in time. Be Patient.

digitalwanderer
03-25-03, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Are you that eager to see Nvidia fail? I'm sure the information will come in time. Be Patient.

I'm just wondering which side of the coin landed up....I'm impatient that way. :)

Nice to see you agree with the outcome of whichever way it goes....... ;) :p

ChrisRay
03-25-03, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I'm just wondering which side of the coin landed up....I'm impatient that way. :)

Nice to see you agree with the outcome of whichever way it goes....... ;) :p

Who knows. I've said it a 100x that I will continue buying ATI products, Expecially now that Cat Maker has suggested the possibility of Digital Vibrance :angel:


But, I don't paticularly won't see Nvidia fall to its knees. ATi and Nvidia are both capable and good companies, So lets hope competition continues to drive excellence for us ;)

If ATi was capable of coming from a complete crap product, surely Nvidia is capable of rebounding,

Anyway, The precision thing while interesting, We won't know for sure, I expected some certified Nvidia drivers to be released shortly. When you see how they perform in 3dmark we can then draw our own conclusions.