View Full Version : The political casualties of "war"
vampireuk
03-18-03, 02:52 AM
linkage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2858957.stm)
and another (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2859189.stm)
Just in case you guys didnt hear, not everything is going as well as over there with the politics. Cook speech (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2859431.stm) a damn fine speech it was too:cool:
silence
03-18-03, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by vampireuk
linkage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2858957.stm)
and another (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2859189.stm)
Just in case you guys didnt hear, not everything is going as well as over there with the politics. Cook speech (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2859431.stm) a damn fine speech it was too:cool:
my best wishes to mr. Cook.
this is called having morale, no matter what the reasons are.
i wish there were more politicians that would follow their principals like him.
"Our interests are best protected not by unilateral action but by multilateral agreement and a world order governed by rules. Yet tonight, the international partnerships most important to us are weakened. The European Union is divided. The Security Council is in stalemate. Those are heavy casualties of a war in which a shot is yet to be fired."
"History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations which led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition."
"Some advocates of conflict claim his forces are now so weak, so demoralised, so badly-equipped, that the war will be over in a few days. We cannot base our military strategy on the assumption that Saddam is weak and at the same time justify pre-emptive action on the claim that he is a threat."
"Why is it now so urgent that we should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has been there for 20 years and which we helped to create?"
wow..........and this is not coming from France, Russia or any other so called anti-american country, this is closest ally US ever had.......and it's coming not from some forum-dwaller or joe_sixpack, it's coming from minister in UK govermant.......someone on the inside......
exactly why is so many ppl around the world against this........exactly everything i think about this war........
/me bows to mr. Cook
FunkTron
03-18-03, 03:32 AM
He really said some powerful, powerful things that were insightful, intelligent and concerned with humanity. That side of the story weighs more than the other side. It really hits home and stirs up emotion.
I have been so borderline in this whole thing, wanting to hear each side out and analyze each detail. I have been realizing the danger that Hussein represents and understanding the need to be proactive in the world to make a statement that terrorism and its evil sidekicks despotism, leeching and lying will not be tolerated. But I am also very aware of the serious ramifications of acting without the backing of others. This is the U.S. going it alone for the first time with not wavering opposition but concrete, disdainful reject for its actions. Hell, (pun intended) the POPE outright called for peace and stated that Roman Catholic church (of all bodies :rolleyes: ) is firmly against the use of force in Iraq.
This is very scary, indeed. The most powerful aspect of this situation, mentally and emotionally, however, is that the two countries leading the charge seem to have fewer supporters than opposers! It's not just France, Germany and Russia that disagree with the U.S. and Britain, it's a great many people within its own borders that are vehemently against battle! Every possible sign of opinion points to backing down, but we are going to charge ahead anyway!
However, I still hold hope that this route will effectively lead to a resolution that benefits all. I don't think hope is totally lost. I hold some hope that the worst never arrives. I see both sides pretty clearly and can only now hope that what occurs next is in the best interests of humanity when it's said and done and that whatever happens, the world community doesn't come unraveled at the seams.
I fear that will not happen, though, and I pray for us all in these surreal times. It's really out of our hands now, and the wheels that have been set turning are about to reach cruise speed.
Funk
silence
03-18-03, 04:00 AM
agreed.
let's hope something good might come out of this (which i doubt).
and let's pray (or whatever you do) for those that are about to lose their lives very soon..........
1stFlight
03-18-03, 06:09 AM
In May Blair is up for elections, -- if the war is still going by then, he's gone
Once that happens, it's highly unlikely the next PM will sustain UK troops in teh region. A full third of our "coalition of the willing" will leave.
Unfortunately, I don't see this having any impact on our insane leader.
vampireuk
03-18-03, 07:01 AM
Make that three (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2859189.stm)
silence
03-18-03, 08:30 AM
you know what really piss*s me off........all these war mongers in this forum.....and none said anything in this thread.
it's easy to bash France or flame on ppl who say that war isn't the smartest idea, but when there are 3 members of BRITISH govermant, US top and most loyal ally, saying what we were saying whole time.....they shut up.......
i wonder what will they say now......are also all these members of british govermant US haters?.....i think these ppl see what is really going on and don't want to participate is something that is completly wrong......
Its difficult to take a multilateral approach when supposed allies {France and France's junior partner Germany} are busy putting up roadblocks on what needs to be done. http://www.pcabusers.net/forums/images/smilies/rude.gif
Originally posted by silence
you know what really piss*s me off........all these war mongers in this forum.....and none said anything in this thread.This thread has been up for less than 6 hours. Its early morning over here. And people are not going to post for your amusement your highness. :p
it's easy to bash France or flame on ppl who say that war isn't the smartest idea, but when there are 3 members of BRITISH govermant, US top and most loyal ally, saying what we were saying whole time.....they shut up.......And its easy to bash on the US as some love to do and people as you just did.
i wonder what will they say now......are also all these members of british govermant US haters?.....i think these ppl see what is really going on and don't want to participate is something that is completly wrong...... Not supporting this doesn't mean a person is a US hater. And supporting this doesn't make one a warmonger.
An obligatory warmonger post... ;) :p
Mr Cook said he could not back a march towards a war that did not have international and domestic support.
If by "international and domestic support" he means everyone in the world agreeing, well, he has a point. Frankly, it's a load of B.S. War sucks, I'll happily agree with that. But so does sharia (Islamic law) and living with the fear that some maniac is going to blow himself up while you're eating dinner.
If they want to leave, let 'em go. Same to any members of the US president's cabinet and Congress. But I'll remind our Senators that they DID authorize the use of force in Iraq on two occasions, so they're looking a bit loopy by flip-flopping now.
Mr. Blair must be deeply convicted of the righness of this action or he wouldn't be pursuing it. Think about it for a minute....would he volutarily pursue a course of action that could very well lead to his political demise if he thought it was the wrong thing to do? Allies or no, I don't think he'd do that. No politician would.
And here's a news flash for everyone: the UN is NOT France, as much as they'd like it to be the case. The EU is NOT France, as much as they'd like it to be the case. Is it reasonable to unilaterally declare a veto (as France did) on ANY UN "resolution" to enforce prior UN "resolutions"?
We will not roll over and play dead to any penny-ante tyrant who aids and abets those who threaten our country, our families and our freedoms. We will not bow down and pay homage to a false peace that will only lead to more death and violence. They can take our lives, but they will not take our freedom.
Cheers,
JND
vampireuk
03-18-03, 09:22 AM
Please dont turn this one into another america/france bashing thread...
blair is siding with the party that he believes will do well... its a good move for him personally I would think and if the war is over as soon as is predicted and the burdens of it and the casualties of it are low... blair may yet resurrect his political career... but cook had valid points when stepping down..
blair is going against public and party opinion... but it is his perogative to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the UK.. in this case that requires being bush's yes man... and providing legitimacy to the coalition of 3...
what part spain is playing I have no idea...
silence
03-18-03, 10:14 AM
"History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations which led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition."
i read this as US screw*d what they had.......IMO, whole problem isn't Saddam and his WMDs or his will to use them. as mr. Cook said "we know he has, we sold it to him".....problem is Bush and his "with us or against us" and "we don't need you, we are most powerfull in the world" attitude. this is prolly why US lost support by it's allies and, i know for myself, it's main reason why ppl don't like US going to war just cause they decided they should.
providing fake evidence, threathining allies, insulting......you name it, Bush Rumsfeld & co. did it.
problem isn't saddam >> problem is Bush.
Let's see, how many countries have pledged support in some way (be it troops, bases, or just general agreement and approval)...
1) UK
2) Australia
3) Spain
4) Portugal
5) Italy
6) Hungary
7) Poland
8) Czech Republic
9) Denmark
10) Turkey (will now allow troops)
11) Qatar
12) Kuwait
13) Albania
14) Croatia
15) Macedonia
16) Bulgaria
17) Estonia
18) Latvia
19) Lithuania
20) Egypt
21) Israel
22) Jordan
23) Oman
24) Saudia Arabia
25) United Arab Emirates
Granted that only the UK and Austraila are contributing troops at the moment. But it's hardly a coalition of 3 (or "unilateral" for that matter).
Cheers,
JND
Lucien1964
03-18-03, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by jnd3
An obligatory warmonger post... ;) :p
If by "international and domestic support" he means everyone in the world agreeing, well, he has a point. Frankly, it's a load of B.S. War sucks, I'll happily agree with that. But so does sharia (Islamic law) and living with the fear that some maniac is going to blow himself up while you're eating dinner.
If they want to leave, let 'em go. Same to any members of the US president's cabinet and Congress. But I'll remind our Senators that they DID authorize the use of force in Iraq on two occasions, so they're looking a bit loopy by flip-flopping now.
Mr. Blair must be deeply convicted of the righness of this action or he wouldn't be pursuing it. Think about it for a minute....would he volutarily pursue a course of action that could very well lead to his political demise if he thought it was the wrong thing to do? Allies or no, I don't think he'd do that. No politician would.
And here's a news flash for everyone: the UN is NOT France, as much as they'd like it to be the case. The EU is NOT France, as much as they'd like it to be the case. Is it reasonable to unilaterally declare a veto (as France did) on ANY UN "resolution" to enforce prior UN "resolutions"?
We will not roll over and play dead to any penny-ante tyrant who aids and abets those who threaten our country, our families and our freedoms. We will not bow down and pay homage to a false peace that will only lead to more death and violence. They can take our lives, but they will not take our freedom.
Cheers,
JND
Things sure have changed since 911.I do have to admire Blairs stance on the issue.He believes in what he is doing regardless of his political future.That takes character unlike our previuos prez.You know stick up the finger to feel the breeze then take your side.
Lucien1964
03-18-03, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by silence
"History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations which led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition."
i read this as US screw*d what they had.......IMO, whole problem isn't Saddam and his WMDs or his will to use them. as mr. Cook said "we know he has, we sold it to him".....problem is Bush and his "with us or against us" and "we don't need you, we are most powerfull in the world" attitude. this is prolly why US lost support by it's allies and, i know for myself, it's main reason why ppl don't like US going to war just cause they decided they should.
providing fake evidence, threathining allies, insulting......you name it, Bush Rumsfeld & co. did it.
problem isn't saddam >> problem is Bush.
Ok I suppose Saddam is not the problem.Give me a ****ing break!!!!My god pull it out before you suffocate.
Originally posted by Lucien1964
Ok I suppose Saddam is not the problem.Give me a ****ing break!!!!My god pull it out before you suffocate.
calm down... you'll live longer... :afro:
Lucien1964
03-18-03, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Sazar
calm down... you'll live longer... :afro:
OK!!!:afro: :afro: :afro:
Originally posted by Lucien1964
OK!!!:afro: :afro: :afro:
dang... now THATS a fro :cool:
silence
03-18-03, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by jnd3
Let's see, how many countries have pledged support in some way (be it troops, bases, or just general agreement and approval)...
1) UK
2) Australia
3) Spain
4) Portugal
5) Italy
6) Hungary
7) Poland
8) Czech Republic
9) Denmark
10) Turkey (will now allow troops)
11) Qatar
12) Kuwait
13) Albania
14) Croatia
15) Macedonia
16) Bulgaria
17) Estonia
18) Latvia
19) Lithuania
20) Egypt
21) Israel
22) Jordan
23) Oman
24) Saudia Arabia
25) United Arab Emirates
Granted that only the UK and Austraila are contributing troops at the moment. But it's hardly a coalition of 3 (or "unilateral" for that matter).
Cheers,
JND
since you posted Croatia i can tell you that over 75% population is AGAINST war. our govermant signed that Vilnius declaration, but our parlament and our public opinion is against it.......our president is also against it.......
same situation is in most east european countries that signed.....
and just one more thing......this is really bad for my country,but it's true........most of these countries that signed were promised help (read bribe) to sign.......so our govermants basically sold their votes for anything they could get.....
one more thing.....i don't see any really relevant country (except for UK, and partially aussies or italians) on that list.....again bad for my country, but it's true........
considering that after 9/11 u had almost unconditional support this is pathetic:rolleyes:
Originally posted by silence
one more thing.....i don't see any really relevant country (except for UK, and partially aussies or italians) on that list.....again bad for my country, but it's true........
And yet Cameroon, Chile and Guinea (those "swing voters" in the UN Insecurity Council) are relevant? So who in the world IS relevant, then. If only the US and UK are relevant, then what's the problem? Is France relevant? Have they done anything huge in the world lately? How about Germany? Russia's recovering nicely after their dark night of Communism, but China's still buried in the mire.
I merely submitted the list to show that "diplomatically" we're not alone....
And if the president and parliament of Croatia are against it, who the heck within your government signed it? ;) :p
I guess it just boils down to a difference of worldviews....I'm more inclined to think decisions should be based on some sort of timeless moral principle, not the shifting sands of public opinion.
Cheers,
JND
silence
03-18-03, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by jnd3
And if the president and parliament of Croatia are against it, who the heck within your government signed it? ;) :p
ex-communists ;)
it's little bit complicated to explain, but our system is different then your.....president doesn't have authority it had in 90's (dictatorship mostly)......and ya,main party controling govermant is ex-communists (not that i mind that,i voted for them to get rid of nationalists (for which i voted before )).
confusing???......it should be,i am confused enough:D :D
Originally posted by silence
you know what really piss*s me off........all these war mongers in this forum.....and none said anything in this thread.
it's easy to bash France or flame on ppl who say that war isn't the smartest idea, but when there are 3 members of BRITISH govermant, US top and most loyal ally, saying what we were saying whole time.....they shut up.......
i wonder what will they say now......are also all these members of british govermant US haters?.....i think these ppl see what is really going on and don't want to participate is something that is completly wrong......
Thats 3 out of what? 200 or so? hardly a flood of dissent.
Taking out Saddam is simply the right thing to do.
I never accused the French of being US haters, they are just pussies.
Saddam is evil. Lets kill him already.
vampireuk
03-18-03, 02:50 PM
Lets not forget it was a member of Blairs cabinet who quit, we have to wait to see how the vote turns out really.
Also in the last hearing 120 rebelled with many more saying they would rebel without a second resolution.
1stFlight
03-18-03, 05:32 PM
You from the way they make this war sound it's as if Iraq is the sole cause of all plaentary strife. Tell me, how will ridding the earth of Saddam change anything!! Al Queda will still be around, there will still be militant muslim groups, international crime. What will a war accompish... nothing, the world will barely notice Saddam is gone. This so pathetic, it makes me ashamed to be an American.
Originally posted by 1stFlight
You from the way they make this war sound it's as if Iraq is the sole cause of all plaentary strife. Tell me, how will ridding the earth of Saddam change anything!! Al Queda will still be around, there will still be militant muslim groups, international crime. What will a war accompish... nothing, the world will barely notice Saddam is gone. This so pathetic, it makes me ashamed to be an American.
I sure am glad I am on the winning side. It must suck to be be a anti-war protestor now. :(
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