Just for you peace nicks out there...........

[Lucien1964]

See men shredded, then say you don't back war
By Ann Clwyd



“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.


For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.



The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.


This guy Saddam must be taken out.





:eek: :eek: :eek:

[LiquidX]

Trust me someone here will find a way to turn that whole statment around as horrible has it is.

[Sazar]

1 more person to add to those being sought be international parties to persecute for war crimes... ariel sharon... actually quite a few israeli generals... and the actions taken against israel ? what about the violations of human rights and un resolutions in israel ?

double standards... there is no doubt there are atrocities commited... there is no doubt saddam is evil... but you are then going to use this as an excuse to attack a country ? pol pot and idi amin's countries were in far more strife... and idi amin DID go into exile... he was not 'taken out' as would be the case here...

[silence]

since you are invloved with human right violations, tell how many countries in the world are currently violating basic human rights?

also.....is using slave child labour violation of human rights?...you know, like US companies do in third-world countries.......


once again, i am 100% sure that Saddam is guilty, but if that's only reason to attack Iraq then i am Pope John Paul II.:rolleyes:

just list all the countries that violate human rights and then cross reference with those that have largest oil supply in the world ;)

please.......i am sick of this "opressed iraqi ppl" stuff as excuse for grabbing their natural wealth......why doesn't US govermant speak so loudly for childern that work as slaves in companies that provide goods to american market?????


when i hear Bush saying he'll do something about this, then i'll believe this war is about liberating iraqi ppl instead of liberating their oil reserves........period.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by silence
since you are invloved with human right violations, tell how many countries in the world are currently violating basic human rights?

also.....is using slave child labour violation of human rights?...you know, like US companies do in third-world countries.......


once again, i am 100% sure that Saddam is guilty, but if that's only reason to attack Iraq then i am Pope John Paul II.:rolleyes:

just list all the countries that violate human rights and then cross reference with those that have largest oil supply in the world ;)

please.......i am sick of this "opressed iraqi ppl" stuff as excuse for grabbing their natural wealth......why doesn't US govermant speak so loudly for childern that work as slaves in companies that provide goods to american market?????


when i hear Bush saying he'll do something about this, then i'll believe this war is about liberating iraqi ppl instead of liberating their oil reserves........period.

besides... the oppressed iraqi people was never the REASON for demanding war in the first place... it was non compliance to resolutions calling for disarmament and for allegedly hiding WMD... why are there so many articles now being posted concerning human rights issues ?

edit : also I do personally think there is more @ stake than just the oil in iraq.. I mean come on... what about natural gas :D

[UDawg]

They just ignored the whole argument. :rolleyes:

[silence]

Originally posted by Sazar

edit : also I do personally think there is more @ stake than just the oil in iraq.. I mean come on... what about natural gas :D

lol......first was WMDs, then resolutions, currently is all cause of opression of the ppl........

once again.....it's not that i like saddam or i think he is good guy, it's simply that i don't trust Bush as soon as he opens mouth......

[Sazar]

Originally posted by UDawg71
They just ignored the whole argument. :rolleyes:

fyi I have read the same stuff many a time... its not like I disagree with it... but with a clear conscience you cant brand one person/group @ fault and disregard other peoples/groups that do the same thing...

furthermore.. I can put forth an editorial myself worded ever so eloquoently in order to stir up public opinion to my beliefs and quote facts et al... its not that hard... you have to remember the source of this 'text'... it is a POLITICIAN... not a human rights activist or any such thing...

[Lucien1964]

Originally posted by UDawg71
They just ignored the whole argument. :rolleyes:

Yep they sure did.What about this what abput that blah blah blah.I'm sure there is many horrible things that has happened in the world from various governments.Removing Saddam would be one less evil guy to worry about.BUt nooooooooooooooooooo its Irsael this and American that blah blah blah.At least were doing something about.Heck if inspections was sooooooooo important why now???Why did the UN turn a blind eye in the mid 90s when the inspectors were kicked out?
Well peeps were going to get this guy without the UN approval and its about damn time.B!tch and moan all you want it will not change things.:p

[Sazar]

france has just said that in the advent of chemical/biological weapons used by iraq.. they would pledge their support to the 'coalition' to help...

[pastor]

Originally posted by silence
since you are invloved with human right violations, tell how many countries in the world are currently violating basic human rights?

also.....is using slave child labour violation of human rights?...you know, like US companies do in third-world countries.......


once again, i am 100% sure that Saddam is guilty, but if that's only reason to attack Iraq then i am Pope John Paul II.:rolleyes:

just list all the countries that violate human rights and then cross reference with those that have largest oil supply in the world ;)

please.......i am sick of this "opressed iraqi ppl" stuff as excuse for grabbing their natural wealth......why doesn't US govermant speak so loudly for childern that work as slaves in companies that provide goods to american market?????


when i hear Bush saying he'll do something about this, then i'll believe this war is about liberating iraqi ppl instead of liberating their oil reserves........period.

silence, i sincerely agree with you about the full hypocrisy of the US gov arguments. it's funny to compare all this LIES POT to the lame arguments american right-minded puritans usualy used during the levinsky affair (i know that's beside the point but it was just about lies )

But Oil is just a plus. The main goal of the US is to take place in middle east so they can be closer to Saudi arabia wich has apparently a role in the al quaida organisation. When Bush will have the keys of IRAK, it won't be very difficult to recruit some middle eastern people to convert them into US intelligence agents. May be they will built an other Echelon spying system for middle east ..etc

it will take some time but they don't have a lot of others options.

But this is obviously a imperialist and colonialist move from the US

It is the more intellingent way ? the future is going to tell us

[Lucien1964]

Originally posted by Sazar
1 more person to add to those being sought be international parties to persecute for war crimes... ariel sharon... actually quite a few israeli generals... and the actions taken against israel ? what about the violations of human rights and un resolutions in israel ?

double standards... there is no doubt there are atrocities commited... there is no doubt saddam is evil... but you are then going to use this as an excuse to attack a country ? pol pot and idi amin's countries were in far more strife... and idi amin DID go into exile... he was not 'taken out' as would be the case here...


Oh I see focus on Israel (IMHO she has the right to defend herself but thats another argument for another day)I thjought I was talking about Iraq.Even if what you say is true I do not see how it has anything to do with the article I posted.I just posted some info about your beloved Saddam that I have a problem with.One more reason why we will go in and get the bastard.You can complain all you want its going to happen.It will be interesting to see what we find............:kill:

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Sazar
fyi I have read the same stuff many a time... its not like I disagree with it... but with a clear conscience you cant brand one person/group @ fault and disregard other peoples/groups that do the same thing...

furthermore.. I can put forth an editorial myself worded ever so eloquoently in order to stir up public opinion to my beliefs and quote facts et al... its not that hard... you have to remember the source of this 'text'... it is a POLITICIAN... not a human rights activist or any such thing...

Ya, I agree with you but the whole world isn't being talked about in this thread, just what Saddam did. When you have replies like your first one it makes excuses for Saddam. I am sure you don't like him but your response still has the affect of defending him.
Didn't Ptr teach you anything about logical fallacies? :p ;)

[Sazar]

Originally posted by UDawg71
Ya, I agree with you but the whole world isn't being talked about in this thread, just what Saddam did. When you have replies like your first one it makes excuses for Saddam. I am sure you don't like him but your response still has the affect of defending him.
Didn't Ptr teach you anything about logical fallacies? :p ;)

you can either look @ it from a pro-war or anti-war stance... i am not for war... however if you go back in my posts to a few months ago you will have seen that I was hoping for a speedy resolution whichever it was... I am a pragmatist... if something is going to happen... so be it... just be for the better... ie.. help people @ home as well...

with the estimated cost of the war rising daily and looking to go well north of 100billion dollars.. I am not sure I am so happy about that either.. since in some way I have to foot the bill too...

Anxiety has gripped the market since Turkish politicians voted on March 1 against a U.S. plan to station 62,000 troops on Turkish soil in return for $30 billion in compensation and aid....

Babacan said the previous aid agreements with the United States, including $6 billion in grants, were still valid.



how does that make me feel ? when I see 30 billion dollars of moneys which I have contributed to giving the government just being tossed around to bribe countries... ?

which is why if there was a strong international consensus... not only would I morally feel obligated to support the stance FOR war... but I would also be unlikely to be footing the ENTIRE bill as it seems will be the case...

no one ever said bush was good @ economic policy... but I doubt anyone thought he would be just this bad...

:(

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Sazar
france has just said that in the advent of chemical/biological weapons used by iraq.. they would pledge their support to the 'coalition' to help...

No thanks! France can keep their one air craft carrier and their help. We don't need them. We were just trying to stroke their tender bottoms when we whent to the UN. :p

[vampireuk]

And yet despite all those atrocities just listed, Saddam was just offered exile:eek:

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Lucien1964
Oh I see focus on Israel (IMHO she has the right to defend herself but thats another argument for another day)I thjought I was talking about Iraq.Even if what you say is true I do not see how it has anything to do with the article I posted.I just posted some info about your beloved Saddam that I have a problem with.One more reason why we will go in and get the bastard.You can complain all you want its going to happen.It will be interesting to see what we find............:kill:

I do not support saddam... and I ask you to find any posts I have saying I do so... I am not FOR saddam.. I am AGAINST war... there is a difference...

the article you posted was a speech given by a labour MP... obviously the labour party has members who are for war like tony blair.. you would THINK they would perhaps come up with a speech like that do you not ?

and when you say we... do you mean you are going in yourself or you are just advocating arm chair warfare from the comfort of your home ?

[Sazar]

Originally posted by vampireuk
And yet despite all those atrocities just listed, Saddam was just offered exile:eek:

well... it would be the most practical thing to do... save a heck of a lot of money and also show the us in good light... therefore in PR terms it is good... saddam could also twist it for good pr sayng he gone done it for the good of the people blah blah blah... while bush will get his accolades for avoiding bloodshed et al...

IMO saddam should take the offer... but he is unlikely to :( unfortunately...

[LiquidX]

Originally posted by silence
why doesn't US govermant speak so loudly for childern that work as slaves in companies that provide goods to american market?????

Yeah it kind of sucks but it doesnt help that we give them more money than there own goverment is able or want to pay them for certain jobs. We cant have 12 year old Nike shoe makers making $10 an hour when the police and army in some of these countries dont even make that much. That would destroy a country more than help.

How many of you would want to be a cop makeing $30 a week if your neighbors kid is makeing $100 a week courtesy of of some US company like Nike pasteing together plastic? Its harsh but but take it up with those goverments and also its not like we hang then upside down and then dump them into a human shredder if the put the Nike check mark in the wrong direction.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by LiquidX
Yeah it kind of sucks but it doesnt help that we give them more money than there own goverment is able or want to pay them for certain jobs. We cant have 12 year old Nike shoe makers making $10 an hour when the police and army in some of these countries dont even make that much. That would destroy a country more than help.

How many of you would want to be a cop makeing $30 a week if your neighbors kid is makeing $100 a week courtesy of of some US company like Nike pasteing together plastic? Its harsh but but take it up with those goverments and also its not like we hang then upside down and then dump them into a human shredder if the put the Nike check mark in the wrong direction.

child labor = children working below minimum wage sent by their families in most instances to earn extra money for the household...

taking advatange of this == exploitation...

also you cannot compare our dollars to other countries currencies... PPP comes into play hence the value of a dollar is not the same in all places in terms of the purchasing power...

[2fast4u]

i will get alot of flames for this i guess but in times of war its not suprising that a report like this comes up. to refresh your memories in 1991 there was a big fat story about that kuwaiti girl who had to watch iraqi soldiers killing babies during the invasion of kuwait city. she later turned out to be the daughter of the kuwaiti embassador and that the story was completely fake and evidently made up to create grounds for war.

ill leave the figuring up to you. personally i would be careful about this, as much as we are all tempted to believe it of course.

:(

[Sazar]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
i will get alot of flames for this i guess but in times of war its not suprising that a report like this comes up. to refresh your memories in 1991 there was a big fat story about that kuwaiti girl who had to watch iraqi soldiers killing babies during the invasion of kuwait city. she later turned out to be the daughter of the kuwaiti embassador and that the story was completely fake and evidently made up to create grounds for war.

ill leave the figuring up to you. personally i would be careful about this, as much as we are all tempted to believe it of course.

:(

kuwait itself was responsible for numerous human rights atrocities in the wake of the gulf war directed @ their palestinian populace... but this is not talked about much...

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by Sazar
well... it would be the most practical thing to do... save a heck of a lot of money and also show the us in good light... therefore in PR terms it is good... saddam could also twist it for good pr sayng he gone done it for the good of the people blah blah blah... while bush will get his accolades for avoiding bloodshed et al...

IMO saddam should take the offer... but he is unlikely to :( unfortunately...

Its not really giving out the best message thought is it, dont f**k with the USA....or you will get a lifetime trip to a sunny beach!!:p

[LiquidX]

Originally posted by Sazar
child labor = children working below minimum wage sent by their families in most instances to earn extra money for the household...

taking advatange of this == exploitation...

also you cannot compare our dollars to other countries currencies... PPP comes into play hence the value of a dollar is not the same in all places in terms of the purchasing power...

If you are unaware you me and all the rest in these here forums have it lucky. Some familes from other countries would not survive if a young man or girl did not do some labor to help the family get by. We can cry about it but we cannot put our selfs in situation where there is a family of six and a father needs is young son to work in order for the family to have shelter and food.

Most countries are not like ours and we cant look at one side and dismiss all the other sides because of appearence. Here in America I was raised by single mother busting her behind and has you know if your under 14 you cant work. Well I did at 12 putting together other people groceries working everyday after school for hours getting a dime or quater. And you cant imagine how this helped her out, I was then able to give her bus fare some times when she did not have it. I was then given a job by the store manager unde ther books where I worked hours upon hours to get enough to help my mother. If anyone was aware of this he would have most definately been fined or lost his job. But I bet no one would have saw how much me haveing a job at 12 helped my mother and me out. What about a paper route? Well I grow up in the suburbs.

Your right about other countries currencies thats why I say the US cannot over pay them. You hear of a worker makeing 2 cents for every shoe which Nike then turns around and sells for $150, but that would be the going rate for that particular labor in that country.


I wish everyone would stop looking at things from the worst point of view.

[silence]

Originally posted by LiquidX
If you are unaware you me and all the rest in these here forums have it lucky. Some familes from other countries would not survive if a young man or girl did not do some labor to help the family get by. We can cry about it but we cannot put our selfs in situation where there is a family of six and a father needs is young son to work in order for the family to have shelter and food.

Most countries are not like ours and we cant look at one side and dismiss all the other sides because of appearence. Here in America I was raised by single mother busting her behind and has you know if your under 14 you cant work. Well I did at 12 putting together other people groceries working everyday after school for hours getting a dime or quater. And you cant imagine how this helped her out, I was then able to give her bus fare some times when she did not have it. I was then given a job by the store manager unde ther books where I worked hours upon hours to get enough to help my mother. If anyone was aware of this he would have most definately been fined or lost his job. But I bet no one would have saw how much me haveing a job at 12 helped my mother and me out. What about a paper route? Well I grow up in the suburbs.

Your right about other countries currencies thats why I say the US cannot over pay them. You hear of a worker makeing 2 cents for every shoe which Nike then turns around and sells for $150, but that would be the going rate for that particular labor in that country.


I wish everyone would stop looking at things from the worst point of view.

helping ur mom after school and working 14 hours a day without break isn't the same.

knowing that those ppl are poor and refusing to pay them more, cause they might feel overpayed (with amazing 50$ in their hands) is probably the saddest thing i ever heard.

do you know what is exploitation??.....geeeeeezz.......

why doesn't Nike sell those shoes according to the price it pays to workers??......unbelievable......i am really and truely shocked.....

Nike makes on one shoe more then those childern make FOR WHOLE months working 14 hours a day and you think it's OK cause extra cash might spoil them?????????????????????????

hello???????????........where do you live??......in disneyland??????

do you know how much does oil cost???????

can those kids buy Dell/Compaq computers to get education at discount?????.........ya,sure........

those kids will NEVER see school........

and you dare to comment HUMAN RIGHTS?????????????

go back to disneyland.....hang out with micky mouse........:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: