Re-starting the NBA MVP debate 2006/2007

[Sazar]

Once again, we are at the juncture in the season that people will start talking about the MVP again. And once again, there is going to controversy, I believe.

Let's look at the candidates in the media buzz, in no particular order.

Dirk Nowitzki - Dallas Mavericks
Steve Nash - Phoenix Suns
Kobe Bryant - Los Angeles Lakers
Tim Duncan - San Antonio Spurs
Lebron James - Cleveland Cavs

That's about it. I would have put Dwyane right up there, except for his injury. Unfortunately he's going to have to wait another season.

From this list, the one no one really seems to mention is Tim Duncan, who has kept the Spurs near the top even with injuries and an early season slump by Ginobli and Parker. Tim has been the rock.

Dirk has played lights out all season, it will be very unfortunate if people look to 1 game to define his season (referring to the 3'rd mavs/suns game where Dirk missed the free-throw at the end). Dirk has guided the Mavs to the best record in the league and has helped lead the Mavs to one of the best strings of winning seasons out there.

Nash, gunning, somehow, for his 3'rd straight and guiding the Suns to the 2nd best record in the league.

Kobe, having a better season than the last, IMO, even with an attrocious series of injuries and people like Smush throwing little temper tantrums.

Lebron, unfortunately, has not lived upto the immense hype from his great season last season and performed below those levels. But, he has shown some improvement in the latter part of this season.

---

By general consensus, apparently this seasons award is between Nash and Dirk and APPARENTLY people have already annointed Nash yet again.

Those who have read my other posts in this section will know I am not as enamoured with Nash as some other people and this will continue in this thread.

If Dirk doesn't win the award this season, there has to be something very wrong with the voting process.

Nash is a good player, I have never personally disputed that but he won his first award when Shaq should have won (he transformed the Heat and his deferred role and consistent play led the Heat to a dominant position in the playoffs and WOULD have led to a title had injuries to himself and Wade not derailed the season).

Kobe should have won last year for what has to be one of the most incredible individual seasons since Jordan's first years AND his leading an inept Lakers squad to the playoffs and being one Tim Thomas 3-pointer away from defeating the Suns.

In Nash' defense, he has had a better season than the last, but he also plays alongside 2 bona-fide all-stars who don't have to be added to a roster (a la Josh Howard). Any team that has Amare and Marion playing alongside and adjusts to their game will dominate. Don't forget the "other" players in Barbosa and company. They would be borderline all-stars on any other team.

Nowitzki also plays alongside a very deep squad. Josh Howard and Stackhouse make his job a lot easier and there is absolutely no denying that. But if Nash is to be credited with helping out the Suns and therefore deserving teh award, I fail to see why the same can't apply for Dirk.

When Kidd was the best PG in the league, how many MVP's did he win? How many did Stockton win for his immense contribution to the Utah Jazz cause over the years (and malone's stats)? They also made their teams better and transformed their team-mates into all-stars.

How many games would Nash win by himself if he didn't have Marion and Amare? Granted he didn't have Amare last season, but Marion had the best season he has ever had and Barbosa also played lights out alongside Tim Thomas.

Why am I bringing this up? Basically because as great a PG as Nash is and as entertaining as he is, I personally think that the MVP award continues to be devalued when all the other tremendous players in the league are overlooked and he continues to get top-consideration.

Tim has won 3 titles, Shaq 4. 7 titles == 3 MVP's total.

Here's the kicker, there are 5 final's MVP's between the 2 of them.

Nash will likely soon have his 3'rd MVP by himself. He has not reached the finals of the NBA playoffs yet. How valuable is he REALLY to the team?

And yes, the league is awarding the award to the regular season's most valuable player (note that I didn't put BEST since obviously no one really gives a **** who the BEST player in the league is). But were Duncan or Shaq any less valuable to their teams than Nash supposedly is?

Given that playoff performance means jack, Dirk should therefore EARN his 1st MVP. He at least led his team within 1 quarter of the NBA title last season and has been in the finals.

[Zelda_fan]

If you think Nash performs poorly in the playoffs then you haven't got your facts straight.

It takes a TEAM to get to a NBA championship, not a single player. You can't blame Nash for "not carrying them on his back to a championship." But to be honest, I think Pheonix has a good chance of winning the finals this year. If I was betting money it would be on Pheonix.

Oh and I think Nash should indeed win another MVP. He is one of the greatest point guards of all time alongside Magic Johnson and Isaiah Thomas. He deserves something like 3-way MVPs to cement his reputation in the league.

[Sazar]

If you think Nash performs poorly in the playoffs then you haven't got your facts straight.

It takes a TEAM to get to a NBA championship, not a single player. You can't blame Nash for "not carrying them on his back to a championship." But to be honest, I think Pheonix has a good chance of winning the finals this year. If I was betting money it would be on Pheonix.

Oh and I think Nash should indeed win another MVP. He is one of the greatest point guards of all time alongside Magic Johnson and Isaiah Thomas. He deserves something like 3-way MVPs to cement his reputation in the league.

Yes, it takes a team. But you have players step up and CARRY teams on their backs. Tim Duncan has done it, Shaq has done it, albeit with Kobe at his side but Kobe was still growing as a player. Wade did it last season. Jordan did it.

Nash typically gets to the playoffs and breaksdown. His game is simply not as consistent in the playoffs.

Phoenix has to learn to play a little defense before they can win. If they get calls going their way, they CAN win it, but you usually see the pace slow-down in the playoffs because teams ratchett up the D. That's why people say Dallas will win, because they can play any style.

And regarding your cementing of the status comment, forgive me if I laugh out loud.

How many MVP's did Clyde win, how many did Barkley win, Ewing, Stockton, Kobe, Malone, Robinson, Hakeem, Thomas, Garnett, Shaq, Duncan, Iverson?

And you say that Nash, Steve Nash, somehow DESERVES 3 mvps (consecutively mind you) to cement his place? Of the previous list, only Duncan has even won 2 awards.

He is a good passer, Mark Jackson was a great passer, Kidd is a great passer. Heck, Kevin Johnson, Cheeks, Payton. Hell, even Scott Skiles was a tremendous passer. Do you propose they deserve 3 MVP's?

[Tygerwoody]

With or without Nash, the Suns are a great team. He does not "carry" the team.

Dirk also does not "carry" his team. Good player yes, but he is on an entire team of stars.

Lebron James or Kobe Bryant are my picks of those who deserve MVP, but I honestly believe Dirk will be the one who gets it.

[Zelda_fan]

With or without Nash, the Suns are a great team. He does not "carry" the team.


Um, yeah, that's why when they signed Nash they went from a disorganized franchise to having the best regular season record in the NBA. Nash is surrounded by great players, but he is the heart of that team. Remove Nash, and that team would barely make the playoffs.

[Zelda_fan]

And regarding your cementing of the status comment, forgive me if I laugh out loud.

How many MVP's did Clyde win, how many did Barkley win, Ewing, Stockton, Kobe, Malone, Robinson, Hakeem, Thomas, Garnett, Shaq, Duncan, Iverson?

And you say that Nash, Steve Nash, somehow DESERVES 3 mvps (consecutively mind you) to cement his place? Of the previous list, only Duncan has even won 2 awards.

Nash is better than every single one of those players you listed in my opinion. Maybe he wouldn't win a 1 on 1 game against them, but I'd rather have Nash on my team than anyone else in the NBA right now.

[Tygerwoody]

Um, yeah, that's why when they signed Nash they went from a disorganized franchise to having the best regular season record in the NBA. Nash is surrounded by great players, but he is the heart of that team. Remove Nash, and that team would barely make the playoffs.
You could say the same with Allen Iverson being put on Denver Nuggets? The Nuggets aren't a bad team, but Allen Iverson complete the team and made it a very good team. But hey thats with alot of teams. One could player always "completes" a team.

Nash is surrounded by great players. If Nash sits out a game, the Suns will still do great and EASILY make it to the playoffs. Remove Kobe or Lebron from their teams and their teams will be lucky to win 10 games ALL SEASON LONG.

Lets pretend Nash gets traded with say... Allen Iverson? A guy who can not only shoot very well, but also can pass with the best of them(he is proving that now, due to the fact he actuallly has good players on his team). Suns would be UNSTOPPABLE.

Nash is good, but he is far from great. To put his name up there with the greats of basketball is insane. His first year he was awarded MVP, Shaq deserved it hands down. Last year I do believe Lebron deserved MVP. Two players that without them, they would not have gone far at all.

I really hope Nash gets hurt just so everyone can see how great the Sun's team is WITHOUT Nash. Sure they wont do "as good" as with Nash because Nash is a good player. However, he really doesn't contribute nearly as much as other players do. Thats like giving John Stockton MVP who "completed" the Jazz. Stockton never deserved MVP and neither does Nash.

[Sazar]

Um, yeah, that's why when they signed Nash they went from a disorganized franchise to having the best regular season record in the NBA. Nash is surrounded by great players, but he is the heart of that team. Remove Nash, and that team would barely make the playoffs.

Zelda, answer me this. Without Shaq, how many of the teams he has been on would have won the title?

Without Duncan, how many of the seasons he has played would the Spurs have made playoffs and the western conference finals?

Remove Nash and the team would have to change its style completely to be able to compete. He functions within this system because it is D'antoni's style and it perfectly suits Nash's game. In light of that, if D'antoni was getting COY awards, I would be perfectly happy with that.

I think Tygerwoody thinks the same way as I do about this discussion, although I don't want Nash to get hurt. I enjoy watching him :)

[Zelda_fan]

Lets pretend Nash gets traded with say... Allen Iverson? A guy who can not only shoot very well, but also can pass with the best of them(he is proving that now, due to the fact he actuallly has good players on his team). Suns would be UNSTOPPABLE.


Iverson can shoot the ball well, but his playmaking abilities are not even close to the same level as Steve Nash (but in all fairness Nash is probably the best playmaker the NBA has ever seen).


Nash is good, but he is far from great. To put his name up there with the greats of basketball is insane. His first year he was awarded MVP, Shaq deserved it hands down. Last year I do believe Lebron deserved MVP. Two players that without them, they would not have gone far at all.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are in the minority. A lot of people in the NBA *DO* think he is one of the greats which is why his name is up for MVP for a 3rd consecutive year.


I really hope Nash gets hurt just so everyone can see how great the Sun's team is WITHOUT Nash. Sure they wont do "as good" as with Nash because Nash is a good player. However, he really doesn't contribute nearly as much as other players do. Thats like giving John Stockton MVP who "completed" the Jazz. Stockton never deserved MVP and neither does Nash.
I don't think it's very cool to hope that an athlete is injured just to prove your point. But I believe that on Nash's first year with the suns he was injured and they were like 2 wins 8 losses without Nash. It's already happened and you are wrong, the Suns didn't do anywhere near as good.

[Zelda_fan]

Zelda, answer me this. Without Shaq, how many of the teams he has been on would have won the title?

Without Duncan, how many of the seasons he has played would the Spurs have made playoffs and the western conference finals?

Remove Nash and the team would have to change its style completely to be able to compete. He functions within this system because it is D'antoni's style and it perfectly suits Nash's game. In light of that, if D'antoni was getting COY awards, I would be perfectly happy with that.

I think Tygerwoody thinks the same way as I do about this discussion, although I don't want Nash to get hurt. I enjoy watching him :)

And Shaq and Duncan are both MVP winners. What's your point?

[Sazar]

And Shaq and Duncan are both MVP winners. What's your point?

My point is Shaq won 1, Duncan 2. They have 7 titles between them and have dominated every full season they have played.

Nash is likely going to get 3 straight MVP titles. No argument in the world can convince me he deserves 3 straight (or has EARNED 3 straight) when every conceivable argument has been made to NOT give MVP awards to Shaq and Duncan on a more consistent basis.

Heck, just look at this season. Duncan has dominated in reduced minutes, his team's record is similar to the Sun's record and his numbers are very consistent, close to Nowitzki's except for assists, but he is a far better defender and yet how much consideration is he getting for leading his team the WHOLE season?

He has even played more games than either of the front-runners.

[Zelda_fan]

Remove Kobe or Lebron from their teams and their teams will be lucky to win 10 games ALL SEASON LONG.

BTW the Suns just beat the Lakers 93-85.

Nash outscored Kobe, and racked up over triple the assists that Kobe had. Kobe for MVP? lol.

[Sazar]

Iverson can shoot the ball well, but his playmaking abilities are not even close to the same level as Steve Nash (but in all fairness Nash is probably the best playmaker the NBA has ever seen).

Whoa, the best ever? :)

Remember a certain someone called Magic? Heard of a guy called Oscar Robertson? Seen Lebron out there lately?

The best ever? :D

He's certainly one of the best PG's today and has had an excellent 5 or 6 years but he's not even at the level of a Magic or even a Bird yet.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are in the minority. A lot of people in the NBA *DO* think he is one of the greats which is why his name is up for MVP for a 3rd consecutive year.

Seriously, what do you expect them to say? If soemone comes to me and asks me day in and day out, do you think Nash is good, I will always respond in the affirmative.

Ask the same question about Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Duncan and so forth.

I don't think it's very cool to hope that an athlete is injured just to prove your point. But I believe that on Nash's first year with the suns he was injured and they were like 2 wins 8 losses without Nash. It's already happened and you are wrong, the Suns didn't do anywhere near as good.

I completely agree with the first part.

The second part is a little harder to justify. Any team Shaq has been on has had a terrible W/L record with him out too my friend.

Further, in the first season, a development of chemistry is required. The team was designed to run when D'Antoni got there. He employed a similar style when he was in Europe, I think you can check some of his coached games on YouTube, they used to have them a while back.

For that matter, when Baron Davis went out the last couple of seasons, his team tanked, does that make him an MVP candidate?

[Sazar]

BTW the Suns just beat the Lakers 93-85.

Nash outscored Kobe, and racked up over triple the assists that Kobe had. Kobe for MVP? lol.

Did you watch Amare and Marion skying for the rebounds and flying in for the layups and defending? I think the offensive boards and the double digit total boards Amare and Marion racked up certainly helped a little bit, don't you? :) Hell, didn't Diaw have a couple of HUGE rebounds at the end of the game when the Lakers were making their run?

Kobe's team, with the exception of Luke Walton, stank. They couldn't even put layups in. Had they converted on even half the point-blank layups they had, they would have won but such is the nature of the game. Odom had a decent stats game but he wasn't around when the game was on the line. Kobe can only do so much himself and as much as I have issues with his game, he has won a lot more games single-handedly than Nash simply by taking over and willing his team to win.

[Tygerwoody]

nash is an awesome playmaker. But i think Kobe is more valuable to his team, because everyone else's level so much lower, he needs to carry most of the load, and usually in the 4th, he singlehandedly wins games for LA. I think nash is awesome, but its kindda "easier" for him to be awesome around amare and marion.
This about sums up my opinions as well.


And about my comment about Nash getting hurt. No i don't wish ill will on anyone. Basically all I was saying is I wish there was a way to see the Sun's play without Nash. They will still do great. Again, maybe not AS good, but still great. Without Lebron or Kobe, their teams will lose by 40+ points each and every game.

[jAkUp]

BTW the Suns just beat the Lakers 93-85.

Nash outscored Kobe, and racked up over triple the assists that Kobe had. Kobe for MVP? lol.

Everyone has bad games.

With that being said I don't think Kobe will get MVP, the Lakers are just not good enough. MVP's go to good players, on good teams.

[Zelda_fan]

Kobe can only do so much himself and as much as I have issues with his game, he has won a lot more games single-handedly than Nash simply by taking over and willing his team to win.

That's just the thing. Nash doesn't take over games, he leads his entire team to take over a game, and that is why the Suns have the second best record in the NBA and the Lakers don't.

[Zelda_fan]

Everyone has bad games.

With that being said I don't think Kobe will get MVP, the Lakers are just not good enough. MVP's go to good players, on good teams.

An MVP doesn't have bad games against top teams.

One of the biggest reasons Michael Jordan is considered the greatest player of all time is because he actually performed BETTER in clutch situations against tough teams.

[Sazar]

An MVP doesn't have bad games against top teams.

One of the biggest reasons Michael Jordan is considered the greatest player of all time is because he actually performed BETTER in clutch situations against tough teams.

Why does Nash always fade in the playoffs if he is so dominant and so clutch?

Jordan's legacy was forged in the regular season and cemented in the playoffs, ditto for Shaq and Duncan and others. Kobe himself has had utterly dominant games in the playoffs, last year he willed the Lakers to almost beat the Suns in 7 games, a series most people thought would be a sweep.

Further, are you discounting or belittling the capabilities of Marion, Amare, Diaw, Barbosa and company? Looking at your posts here, that seems the implication.

For what it's worth, I personally feel Marion is a lot more important to the Suns than Nash and Amare's continued resurgence from knee problems will allow him to eventually become an MVP candidate in the not-too-distant future. The Suns run no plays for Marion (as everyone keeps saying) and yet he is averaging basically a double double PLUS being there in the blocks and steals and assists every game.

[Zelda_fan]

Why does Nash always fade in the playoffs if he is so dominant and so clutch?

If you look at Nash's career playoff averages in assists and points, he plays slightly better in playoff games.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/steve_nash/career_stats.html

He has never won a ring, but he's gotten his team to game 7 of the Western Finals several times. He'll probably win a ring over the next few years.


Jordan's legacy was forged in the regular season and cemented in the playoffs, ditto for Shaq and Duncan and others. Kobe himself has had utterly dominant games in the playoffs, last year he willed the Lakers to almost beat the Suns in 7 games, a series most people thought would be a sweep.

Kobe has never won a championship without Shaq.


Further, are you discounting or belittling the capabilities of Marion, Amare, Diaw, Barbosa and company? Looking at your posts here, that seems the implication.

For what it's worth, I personally feel Marion is a lot more important to the Suns than Nash and Amare's continued resurgence from knee problems will allow him to eventually become an MVP candidate in the not-too-distant future. The Suns run no plays for Marion (as everyone keeps saying) and yet he is averaging basically a double double PLUS being there in the blocks and steals and assists every game.

Suns do have a good team, but Amare is the only one who I consider a tier 1 player on the Suns other than Nash.

Marion is alright... but in my opinion he is more of a good tier 2 player.

[Tygerwoody]

That's just the thing. Nash doesn't take over games, he leads his entire team to take over a game, and that is why the Suns have the second best record in the NBA and the Lakers don't.
I forgot, Nash has the "Nash Aura" that allows all other players to play better. Please disregard anything I said. The "Nash Aura" would make any team play better. Nash deserves MVP. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Sazar]

If you look at Nash's career playoff averages in assists and points, he plays slightly better in playoff games.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/steve_nash/career_stats.html

He has never won a ring, but he's gotten his team to game 7 of the Western Finals several times. He'll probably win a ring over the next few years.

Lamar Odom also has great stats Zelda, but the fact is he fades when the going gets tough. Vince Carter has great stats too, but is he as good when the game is on the line?

Last season, it was Tim Thomas who saved the Suns season, not Nash.

Kobe has never won a championship without Shaq.

Nash has never won a championship, period.

Suns do have a good team, but Amare is the only one who I consider a tier 1 player on the Suns other than Nash.

Marion is alright... but in my opinion he is more of a good tier 2 player.

One of these days, Marion will actually move to a different team and you will see what your team is missing and how great he really was.

There is no more under-rated player, perhaps in the history of the NBA, than Shawn Marion.

[Tygerwoody]

Hey look, i found a picture of Steve Nash every time he reaches the playoffs.

http://www.msu.edu/user/dompiert/images/firstaidcpr/choking1.gif

[Tygerwoody]

woah i even found a picture of Dirk everytime he plays in the playoffs

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/stessa82/choking.jpg

[Tygerwoody]

bah wrong team