PDA

View Full Version : problems with FX


gokickrocks
03-21-03, 02:47 PM
i took off my gpu waterblock to test the fx flow, and well, when i play a game such as bf1942, the fan never kicks in and the temps of the card went up to 90 C, it probably would have went higher if i didnt quit the game...

i know the fan works, cause when i boot up, it kicks in to 3d mode and then drops back to 2d mode

on a side note, 4xS with 4xAF is unplayable in bf1942, its like watching a slide show...and also, like bladerunner says, the ram gets really hot, even with that big ol copper contraption that they use to cool it, its better with a fan blowing on the back side of it

Badash
03-21-03, 05:12 PM
I don't know what you mean? You took off the FX flow and put a waterblock on it or you took off the waterblock on another card and put the fx flow on it? I have had oppisite results, The card seems to run so cool that I am sure I could remove the FX flow and set a slow 120mm with a fan bracket next to it blowing on all the copper. and it would run the same. I really don't think it's running much hotter or the same as my ti4600. I am probably going to do that when the gainward FX 5800 comes out. Right now the fx fan shuts off in most games besides heavy ones like ut2003, or doom 3 alpha, after about 8 mins after turning on a 3d app because its running cool enough.

BladeRunner
03-21-03, 05:22 PM
Make sure the card is adjusting the clock speeds up when going into 3D. The drivers or something maybe fubar'd and the clock speeds may be staying at 2D levels especially if you have some 3rd party overclocking app like Riva Tuner installed.

I'm not sure if it works that way but the fan spinning up or not may be controlled by the clock speed. If your card were staying at 2D clocks it would still get hotter running a 3D app than at idle.

You can use the below linked D3D screensaver to check clock speeds when it's running as a 3d app in a window.

I got a new FX card the other day and my FX cooler back for a short while, and it's running fine and silently at 560/1100 atm. Was using the 42:68 drivers but the temp tab didn't work with these, but I just installed the 43:30's which have the temp tad and kind of proves the Ram is the heat "problem" with FX Ultra.

With Nvidia Using a .13 process the GPU should not have any heat issues, which is backed up by the lowest card reported GPU temp I've seen with my water-cooled cards though out the past few years.

click for full-size:-

http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/projects/fx/wcfx2ds.jpg (http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/projects/fx/wcfx2d.jpg)

at idle in 2d with default 2D clock speeds.

http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/projects/fx/wcfx3ds.jpg (http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/projects/fx/wcfx3d.jpg)

Running a 3D app in a window for 30 mins (Aquarium2 D3D screensaver (http://www.serenescreen.com/product/)) clocked at 560/1100. Coolant temp was around 12.8c thoughout.

BladeRunner
03-21-03, 05:33 PM
Badash

He had a card with FX flow took it off before using it to put on a waterblock then later tried FX flow taking the waterblock off ....... or at least that's the way I read it.

If your card is running that cool it's either not clocking up in 3D, (unlikely as the three I've had so far get silly hot in 2D too), or it's not using DDRII Ram, (I heard something about some of the pre-release cards not having DDRII ram), or PNY have found something out, (again unlikely as others have reported hot PNY's)

Or maybe you live in Alaska :)

Badash
03-23-03, 11:42 AM
No It's working fine. I just have really good airflow and a lot of space around the FX. However I don't have a program that will check clock speed except 3dmark. Powerstrip says it can't read it probably due to the changing clocks. What program will read it?

BladeRunner
03-23-03, 12:12 PM
The latest Riva Tuner (http://www.guru3d.com/rivatuner/) seems to read it ok with 43:30 drivers but there is a nasty ram clock lock with these as they were originally Dell Nvidia Quadro4 700XGL/900XGL based drivers.

It wont got over 1gig on the ram and I've tried all the oc apps and fiddiling with the simpson registry keys without any joy so far.

The 42:68's I had allowed ram oc via the nvidia's coolbits included in the drivers.

Once you have RivaTuner 2.0 Release Candidate 12.3 (make sure it's the latest 12.3 or newer) run it and look at the overclocking section. (either low level or driver based), while in 2D it should read 300 /600.

Now run that aquarium D3D screensaver (or another 3D app that can be run in a small window then restart Riva Tuner and look at the clocks. with mine it currently shows 564.3 / 999.0

jAkUp
03-23-03, 01:15 PM
damn... my flow fx never shuts off in games. and i have 11 fans!!!! go fig

gokickrocks
03-23-03, 01:48 PM
well, i may have the first FX casualty, it wont boot anymore after that incident with it running too hot, back to newegg it goes

Badash
03-23-03, 03:53 PM
ah well I dunno I ran the screensaver AND the same game I got the fan to shut off and today the fx flow wouldn't shut off. Running in rivatuner 501.4/999 . I got tired of testing it. How do you have yours watercooled bladerunner? Is there a good watercooler on the market that would do it and be silent and not take up much space? I'm going to try a 120mm fan next to it with the FX flow removed blowing all the hot air off it towards the 120mm exhaust and see what the temps are. But I'm not modding it till I decided if I'm keeping this FX or replacing it with the Gainward FX. BTW the FX board says Rev. J whatever that means. Rivatuner says A2.

BladeRunner
03-23-03, 06:52 PM
Badash

Everything in my PC is water-cooled that requires it so that I don't have any fans at all. I custom make everything including full card coolers, that include ram blocks which until recently have not strictly been required unless volt modding, but with FX, (and previous Radeon 9700 Pro), the ram is a major heat creator.

You already know of the FX water-cooler in another topic, but maybe not my connection with it, anyway more details about it including pics HERE (http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1579059)

Water-cooling is really something you need to commit to fully for it to work well, and not easy to make silent without going to more extreme lengths. Either way it's not something to do half hearted. My reasons are to have silence with cool temps but not compromising top end PC performance.

Captain Beige
03-23-03, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by BladeRunner
Everything in my PC is water-cooled that requires it so that I don't have any fans at all. I custom make everything including full card coolers, that include ram blocks which until recently have not strictly been required unless volt modding, but with FX, (and previous Radeon 9700 Pro), the ram is a major heat creator.

You already know of the FX water-cooler in another topic, but maybe not my connection with it, anyway more details about it including pics HERE (http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1579059)

Water-cooling is really something you need to commit to fully for it to work well, and not easy to make silent without going to more extreme lengths. Either way it's not something to do half hearted. My reasons are to have silence with cool temps but not compromising top end PC performance.

wow you want silent and cool running so you got an FX? you must really like to push yourself. I go for silence too but use passive heat transfer cos they're cheaper and more reliable.

BladeRunner
03-23-03, 07:38 PM
Captain Beige

Read the link in my previous post to understand! I haven't bought an FX, I've had three different 5800 Ultras so far, (one was classed as dead although it worked with Display issues at a lower clock), At the moment I don't have an FX to call my own just yet...... soon hopefully ;)

Effective cooling on the FX I'm using atm allows some pretty good overclocking results, 580/1100 was as far as I got on the 42:68's in testing but I hadn't checked higher before installing the 43:30's to get the temp reporting tab. The 43:30's have a ram lock so wont go above 1gig. Trying 1200mhz, (max slider value), on the ram with the 42:68's it was artifacting a bit, but more voltage and it would probably run at that speed artifact free. I'd guess more voltage would get the GPU well over 600mhz too.

Whether you like it or not, it seems hotter 3d cards are likely the way of the foreseeable future, so I'm happy to spend a few weeks designing and making a water-cooler so I can have silence and overclocking without any heat issues during the time I use the card :)

Without the noise and heat of the FX Flow cooler I like the card so far, although I haven't done much testing I'm playing through Unreal 2 & it runs and looks great as does the Dawn demo, no lock-ups or problems.

If you can passively cool the FX 5800 ultra Effectively and allow overclocking without heat issues, then you better market whatever you make because it will have to be something ultra special.

I'm yet to be convinced Passive cooling, (zero fans), can allow you to run with top end performance without either having worryingly high temps, or some kind of other performance compromises.

Badash
03-23-03, 09:23 PM
Every once in awhile i get a small pause like as if it's checking the temps or something. Like once or twice every 15mins. It could be the new detonator 43.00 don't like gigabyte easy tune either for background tasks. You have to be a real fanatic to notice what I'm talking about it's like internet lag but it's not I can tell it's a pause. Is anyone else noticing this? Or is it just background tasks that I have. I will run it awhile without easytune and see what happens. I don't use it anyway I just look at the fan speeds in easytune.

Captain Beige
03-23-03, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by BladeRunner
I'm yet to be convinced Passive cooling, (zero fans), can allow you to run with top end performance without either having worryingly high temps, or some kind of other performance compromises.

I use passive cooling but don't make top end performance - you pay v. high premiums on top-end CPUs and graphics. I make mid-high end systems for best price/performance.

anyway, what you're saying in the quote above may be true of CPUs, but not graphics. the FX is badly designed/pushed way past its original design and that's why there's problems. if you'd been using a Sapphire 9700pro Ultimate up until just recently (FX/9800pro released), you would have been running the best graphics card available and it's completely silent - completely passive cooling. so it can be done. since the 9800pro also uses a regular fan, maybe it can be run using the same passive cooling too.

BladeRunner
03-24-03, 04:18 AM
CoWBoY

Im not getting sucked it a pointless arguement here and I'm not suggesting anyone else should water-cool their PC's or 3D cards, especially to my extremes, just that the trend over the past few years is the cards are getting hotter, and it looks like it will continue for the foreseeable future. Having said that if they can solve the ram heat, the GPU is one of the coolest running I've come across but this will most likely rise as the clock speeds go up through the new process.

The Radeon 9700 Pro I water-cooled (http://www.deviantpc.com/articles/ati9700wc/index.shtml) before the FX would not run a 3D app without crashing due to the ram chips getting to finger burning temps. Some would say, well you should have a fan blowing on it, but by design a card should have enough cooling built in to run, and it wasn't as if I was using it in a high ambient either, about 20C. As I'm not wanting any fans at all water is another option and it generally allows higher overvolting / overclocking (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33651150) as a bonus.

Huge ram sink may have been enough on the R9700's ram to avoid them getting that hot but to run in a fanless system anything adding unwanted heat to the air is not welcome.

As most people now have towers maybe a card redesign so all the hot parts are on the back, (top as viewed in a tower), may help for cooling, but this would requred mobo layout changes etc.



Captain Beige

I tried to make a back up passive PC but I still ended up with two fans, (one pabst 12db rated in the PSU, and one 12db rated pabst above the Zalman flower sink). Using an undervolted Duron 800 at 500 mhz without the fans running at 5v the CPU would get to 65c underload and the fanless nb and PSU very hot too.

My cooling solution is in the very extreme but what it allows me to do is add almost any new top end hardware without heat issues once I've made a block set for it.

I think there is more mileage in the heatpipe designs, but they again are not ideal in low or zero airflow systems leading to far higher temps than I like to see.

jAkUp
03-24-03, 10:35 AM
i havent noticed any pauses in any games... and im usually sensitive to that kind of thing

BladeRunner
03-24-03, 11:54 AM
CoWBoY


However, your suggestions are interesting although rediculous.

Nvidia- Let's redesign our videocard so enthusiast can volt-mod them, change the cooling element that we spent a few $100k developing and get more performance out of them while we eat it up in cost.


"I understand you are not looking for an arguement, I wasn't suggesting one... just voicing my opinion is all"........... So I'll take it as a misunderstanding on your part. :)

Where did I say they should redesign the cards so we could volt mod them?. The fact is the AGP slot in sitting next to the PCI for the change over period when it was a new standard assumed at that time Desktops were to remain the mainstay. Regardless of aftermarket cooling or water-cooling for that matter it makes little sense to have the hot parts on the underside of the card by design, when it's a known fact heat rises, that was my point, sorry you missed it.

You seem to be making something out of nothing here, and you could probably find holes in whatever I say so lets get back to the original topic. My main point wasn't a scientific statement just that 3D cards seem to be getting hotter in general and I don't se it magicly going away over night. This is not just about FX, but generally something I've noticed through the cards I've owned over the years.

Other than the original Gf DDR, (that was an unfinished beta product on release anyway). GF2 GTS - GF3 - GF4 TI4600 - Radeon 9700 - Geforce FX are what I've owned and the heat levels have gone up with each upgrade.

BladeRunner
03-24-03, 01:56 PM
You are not irritating me it's just for some reason best known to yourself you've taken a task to try to split up, analyse and twist everything I've put. It happens from time to time and the people that do it normally get referred to as thread Nazis.

The pattern is lots of quoting various parts of previous post in a vain attempt to make some kind of point. I could counter what you've said but its tedious to me now.

It's over! back on topic please.

Badash
03-24-03, 02:05 PM
From testing I can determine that when the fan is shutting off it is downclocking to 2d mode for no apparent reason. It only does this in some games. Not doom3 alpha or ut2003. It works fine in those. Also 3dmarks are fine. But it seems older games directx 8 do it. It is like it thinks it's not in a 3d app so it downclocks. It's not overheating at all, so that isn't it. It's just buggy. If I alt tab out then back in then the fan turns on. Since it's so expensive I'm returning it. I want a geforce fx ultra but I want one that works right so I'm going to wait till the gainward comes out and see if it works ok. The graphics are sweet on the fx, I'm going to miss it. No ati for me so I will wait.

BladeRunner
03-24-03, 02:20 PM
That is mighty odd, Not really sure if the ones I've had do that as I haven't played older games with any of them. If you RMA rather than return it you are going to have fun getting over what is wrong with it to the RMA dept. Make sure they don't just do the "usual" test or you'll most likely get the same one back again

Badash
03-24-03, 06:45 PM
Do all the Geforce FX's downclock for 2d? Is there any coming out that won't ?what about the non ultra does it down clock also? I figure if you've got cooling like bladerunner the way to insure that it's running 500/1000 all the time is to overclock it and force it to run the clocks you want all the time. That way you can forget about it. Otherwise I will always be wondering if it's running 500/1000. When I get another one that's what I'm going to do. Any US eta for Gainwards card? Also bladerunner do you know anything about the statement on the features page for the FX on Gainward.com where it says 256bit DDR2 ?
Gainward Features page for the FX (http://www.gainward.com/c-1.html?id=81&opt=4)

BladeRunner
03-25-03, 04:24 AM
If the card had fan rpm monitoring I could see easily, either by using a fan or a fan mimic device I made (pulse gen). Anyway I guess I could connect a 12v led to the fan header power which would light when the fan is being feed 12v in 3D but go off if it went into 2D clocks, (fan stopped).

As far as I know unless a maker finds a much better aircooling solution then the ultras will all down clock. If as it appears most of the heat is the ram then it's possible the other FX version wont need to. Like you say I could run this card at 3D clocks all the time with the better cooling I guess, never really thought about it until you mentioned the problem.

I'm working with Gainward but I'm not party to any internal information, and I don't know about the ram. It's possible they may want me to sign an NDA in the future if I end up working on pre-release stuff anyway, so there would be a limit on what info I could share with the communitity.

Badash
03-27-03, 12:38 AM
There is some good Gainward info here Gainward FX Lineup (http://www.digital-daily.com/editorial/cebit-2003/index08.htm)

Sounds like the watercoolings coming soon, but I've seen that watercooler somewhere else and It's specs weren't quiet with those fans?:confused: