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View Full Version : New policy at Futuremark: WHQL drivers only, NO MORE CHEATING!


digitalwanderer
03-24-03, 11:38 AM
I just saw this posted over at R3D (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33674872) so I can't vouch for it's vericity yet, but if it's true I think it's a great and ballsy move by Futuremark with a great big "F*CK YOU!" going out to nVidia with it. ;)

Discuss? :D

EDITED BITS: Verified by the onion folks (http://www.futuremark.com/news/?newsarticle=200303/2003032403#200303/2003032403), this is real! :D :D :D

Quinn1981
03-24-03, 12:35 PM
While I think it is important to point out all things like this when it is possible that a company is cheating on IQ to get better performance, let us not forget when the 8500 did the same thing.

Definitely a large move by Futuremark that should have been done long ago. I think it had to have been done now due to nVidia's critical opinions of the benchmark, which whether we want to admit it or not - carry a lot of weight in the industry.

Can't really say I think nVidia will care about it though. They were for the media and they are most likely working so hard on trying to "fix" FX performance that they won't even notice. :rolleyes:

digitalwanderer
03-24-03, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Quinn1981
Can't really say I think nVidia will care about it though. They were for the media and they are most likely working so hard on trying to "fix" FX performance that they won't even notice. :rolleyes:

.....no.

This is going to bring into the spotlight the whole Achille's heel of the FX & DX9, the 24FP requirement. All the driver sets in question use the 16FP, and M$ requires 24FP for DX9 certification.

This is exactly WHY the FX has such crappy performance! (Although I really don't mean it's a crappy card, just under the current DX9 standard....I really wouldn't mind one myself to game with. ;) ) The hacked drivers that 'nVidia put out to show how much optimizing drivers can affect benchmarks' only showed off the problems with their hardware's design and the new DX standard.

(BTW-Is it just me, or does it start to get confusing when you're having 3 different arguments with the same people across a couple of three boards? :confused: :lol: )

saturnotaku
03-24-03, 12:57 PM
This will be all very well and good provided we see no non-WHQL results from any other video card manufacturer. That means, no more results with Omega's or any other beta drivers from ATI or NVIDIA.

Quinn1981
03-24-03, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
.....no.

This is going to bring into the spotlight the whole Achille's heel of the FX & DX9, the 24FP requirement. All the driver sets in question use the 16FP, and M$ requires 24FP for DX9 certification.

This is exactly WHY the FX has such crappy performance! (Although I really don't mean it's a crappy card, just under the current DX9 standard....I really wouldn't mind one myself to game with. ;) ) The hacked drivers that 'nVidia put out to show how much optimizing drivers can affect benchmarks' only showed off the problems with their hardware's design and the new DX standard.

(BTW-Is it just me, or does it start to get confusing when you're having 3 different arguments with the same people across a couple of three boards? :confused: :lol: )
But you're stating the obvious DW. ;) I'm just saying they will have that on the back burner while they try to appease the WHQL gods. Plus, you'll notice my rolly eyes hinting at a bit of sarcasm. :)

As for multiple board debating... yes. :D

I agree with Saturnotaku. With this, we should see total WHQL results only and no hacked drivers of any kind. This should have been done a while ago if Futuremark wanted "clean" results.

I only want to see total clean benchmarks now because 3D Mark 2003 is more like a gaming system benchmark than a video subsystem benchmark. Otherwise, this will make the whole 3D Mark fun just null and void concerning video tweaking.

I have mixed emotions about it though.

digitalwanderer
03-24-03, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Quinn1981
I have mixed emotions about it though.

Ah, there ain't nothing more pleasant than the certainity that blind video zealousy can bring you. It's a real comfort and a blessing.































j/k ;)

Quinn1981
03-24-03, 02:34 PM
Oh, you kidder. :rolleyes:

Solomon
03-24-03, 10:09 PM
Hmmmmmmm. Well if they do away with "ALL" non-WHQL driver results, I'm curious to how their die hard fan club will react to it. I'm wondering if this is more of a "Financial" move then anything. Considering that their 03 version differes completely from their predecessor in terms of options on the demo to the paying version.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

Hanners
03-25-03, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Solomon
I'm wondering if this is more of a "Financial" move then anything. Considering that their 03 version differes completely from their predecessor in terms of options on the demo to the paying version.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I think it's simply their way of protecting themselves from the damage nVidia have tried to do to them by releasing these 'cheating' drivers for3DMark 2003.

I just hope that they apply this kind of thing even-handedly, and stop any non-WHQL results from being used, regardless of the IHV. You can't use one rule for one company, and one for everyone else.

Some people have mentioned the idea of FutureMark keeping a database for WHQL drivers, and one for non-WHQL drivers - I think they would be a good idea, and even more revealing...

Quinn1981
03-25-03, 11:31 AM
If they call they shot, they have to make it; or else they will loose all credibility.

DJB
03-25-03, 04:43 PM
The are clearly just targeting this series of Nvidia drivers.
I will bet you the video card of your choice that you can access plenty of results on ATI cards using non-WHQL drivers, for that matter you can access plenty of Nvidia results using non-WHQL drivers; just not the specific driver sets that Nvidia put out to show that yes, you can tweak for a specific benchmark, but we would rather not have to.

DJB

Sazar
03-25-03, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Quinn1981
While I think it is important to point out all things like this when it is possible that a company is cheating on IQ to get better performance, let us not forget when the 8500 did the same thing.

Definitely a large move by Futuremark that should have been done long ago. I think it had to have been done now due to nVidia's critical opinions of the benchmark, which whether we want to admit it or not - carry a lot of weight in the industry.

Can't really say I think nVidia will care about it though. They were for the media and they are most likely working so hard on trying to "fix" FX performance that they won't even notice. :rolleyes:

do you realise what happened in the quake/quak issue?

do you realise what was done.. for what period of time... who leaked the info to hardware review sites et al ?

do you also realise that nvidia has for a while released 'optimised' drivers that give boosts in 3dmark2001SE and not much else.. in fact reducing playability or stability in other games?

it is not an isolated incident and ati does not have a history of HACKING... there is one instance that always gets touted and yet there are few who seem to know what happened...

whether they 'cheated' is subjective... I am sure many feel they did.. I for one do not... looking @ the evidence given... and the sources...

nvidia's words carry weight only with the ignorant... if you are going to look @ OEM manufacturers.. and companies like alienware and others that give a copy of your benchmark figures expected with your sytem... you are perhaps going to have a different opinion...

OEM peeps seem to know a little more than the average joe and they are likely to go with the products they can get their hands on and sell which have the much touted new technologies that consumers want... this was expected of the 5800ultra.. but oem manufacturers can hardly build top end systems using them if they are not retailling...

there are a lot of cards on the market that are in the gf4mx and lower range from nvidia... look @ the number of users who have r300 based cards right now... now consider those users choices when they look to upgrade... ati is filing every price point with powerful components.. nvidia has a void in their lineup when it comes to nextgen parts @ the moment... the nv31/34 will plug this.. but the HIGH end remains open to ati... untill the nv35 comes and is available in quantity...

it is not a situation nvidia will be willing to just sit back and say.. we have better cards... month on month the last few months ati is outselling nvidia... not by much.. but they are...

Quinn1981
03-25-03, 08:14 PM
Did I say that they have a history? I don't remember saying that.

With the 8500 release, they decreased texture IQ to get more performance with Quake3 and 3D Mark 2001. I think I should know about those two.

As we all know, or should I say, should know is that both of them have cheated a little bit here and there. With the addition of FX, now we have the same instance as the 8500. ATI wished to get a monkey off it's back and now nVidia wants to do the same.

Do you think I'm some kind of nVidia fan boy. Last time I check, I wasn't.

I think your views of the OEM market are a little screwed over as well. Since when did you think that the OEM system companies wanted to actually give their customers what they wanted? Lowest bidder and stable products are what counts. Just like any other business.

And I hope you don't think nVidia's word doesn't count for anything. It's as powerful or weak as ATI's.

I don't think you know enough about the whole situation to try and tell me facts. Sorry that I'm in a bad mood, but I think you're a real knob gobbler that states the obvious to back up what little horse **** you think you know.

Have a good day. :D

digitalwanderer
03-25-03, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Quinn1981
Do you think I'm some kind of nVidia fan boy. Last time I check, I wasn't.

ROFLMFAO~~~~~~~~


Ok, it's just funny if you consider/know about Quinn's whole background as a mod over at RageUnderground for so many years. ;) (RU=ATI fan site, which now sucks donkey-balls IMHO :) )

Quinn1981
03-25-03, 10:02 PM
At least lightspeed is going to his own site now. :)

Ahh. The bashing we did on ATI when their drivers really did suck oh so bad. :rolleyes:

Sazar
03-25-03, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Quinn1981
Did I say that they have a history? I don't remember saying that.

With the 8500 release, they decreased texture IQ to get more performance with Quake3 and 3D Mark 2001. I think I should know about those two.

As we all know, or should I say, should know is that both of them have cheated a little bit here and there. With the addition of FX, now we have the same instance as the 8500. ATI wished to get a monkey off it's back and now nVidia wants to do the same.

Do you think I'm some kind of nVidia fan boy. Last time I check, I wasn't.

I think your views of the OEM market are a little screwed over as well. Since when did you think that the OEM system companies wanted to actually give their customers what they wanted? Lowest bidder and stable products are what counts. Just like any other business.

And I hope you don't think nVidia's word doesn't count for anything. It's as powerful or weak as ATI's.

I don't think you know enough about the whole situation to try and tell me facts. Sorry that I'm in a bad mood, but I think you're a real knob gobbler that states the obvious to back up what little horse **** you think you know.

Have a good day. :D

the QUAK issue was specific AFAIK to quake... didnt see ANYTHING concerning 3dmark01... [edit... there were optimizations... but not to the extent of quake/quak... per the people who pointed this out... once again... IMHO its subjective... person to person...]

my say on the OEM market is based entirely on availability/pricing and networking... ATi has been working hard with its partners and has picked up some new contracts... nvidia and visiontek... need I say more?

OEM's will sell the product the consumer is most likely to buy... ie what the consumer wants... or perceives to want... or can be convinced to want... nvidia is a powerful company and they have good contacts all round.. I do not see them going under as many had predicted...

also... I am not saying you are an nvidia fanboy... or otherwise... I did not agree with somethings you posted.. and replied to them based on my experiences... if you do not agree with them... thats fine... I am not suggesting my word is fact.. expressing opinion != fact as I am sure many people will agree about a LOT of posters who believe their word is gospel...

I am not going to stoop to your levels and get into name calling... :) though it is disheartening to see a mod of any site get into that kind of attitude... regardless of the day they have had...

Quinn1981
03-25-03, 10:46 PM
With 3D Mark 2001, there were blurred textures that couldn't be sharpened. You couldn't even read the license plate on the truck. I tried it myself on my friends 8500. It was so significant that my GF2 without AF was sharper than the 8500 with AF.

With the OEMs, they also factor in name recognition. Everyone right now know that ATI "is tha' bomb" so that's why they pack them in for gamers who buy OEM machines (but only if there are stable WHQL drivers and the price is right. Any computer user who is not a gamer won't even know what an ATI or nVidia card is. They just know they want Intel.

Everyone has bad days, but my mood wasn't all that great and your mannerism wasn't very respectful, so I gave some back.

This is one out of 1000s of posts and I broke. Most wouldn't even call that breaking, but a normal day in the threads.

You just didn't make it sound like you were expressing your opinion one bit and I didn't like it. Thanks for explaining though. Shows some respect for the people around you... which is more than I can say for most forum goers. :rolleyes: As for the level of name calling, I have no level in the first place. I am a bastard you know. :)

Sazar
03-25-03, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Quinn1981
With 3D Mark 2001, there were blurred textures that couldn't be sharpened. You couldn't even read the license plate on the truck. I tried it myself on my friends 8500. It was so significant that my GF2 without AF was sharper than the 8500 with AF.

With the OEMs, they also factor in name recognition. Everyone right now know that ATI "is tha' bomb" so that's why they pack them in for gamers who buy OEM machines (but only if there are stable WHQL drivers and the price is right. Any computer user who is not a gamer won't even know what an ATI or nVidia card is. They just know they want Intel.

Everyone has bad days, but my mood wasn't all that great and your mannerism wasn't very respectful, so I gave some back.

This is one out of 1000s of posts and I broke. Most wouldn't even call that breaking, but a normal day in the threads.

You just didn't make it sound like you were expressing your opinion one bit and I didn't like it. Thanks for explaining though. Shows some respect for the people around you... which is more than I can say for most forum goers. :rolleyes: As for the level of name calling, I have no level in the first place. I am a bastard you know. :)

I mod @ a forum too... thats why I was a bit miffed @ getting called names... :) I expect people who mod to maintain a certain level as they undoubtedly have characterestics that made them a mod in the first place...

but no harm done... :)

must admit my writing style may be a bit bland and matter of fact... but like I said... its my opinions...

and yes.. there were issues with the 3dmark2001 bench... which is why I came back and edited the post so as to avoid misunderstanding...

@ work we build machines and have contacts with local OEM lads... and I have a couple of m8's who are starting up from scratch.. building custom systems... price/performance... they are looking for mainly when they put stuff together.. so their customers will be happy... need repeats :D

of course... there was a lad on the forums I mod.. his wife built him the most expensive alienware system she could find coz he games... it was a dual pentium 4 system... I believe 2.8ghz @ the time :) and he had a quadro... not the FX mind.. but one of the older ones... because it was the most expensive video card she could buy :)

total cost of system == $ 10k... gaming experience? well lets just say he made the machine the home theater centers heart... lol... AFAIK :)

moral of story... people will buy anything they 'think' is good... lol...

Quinn1981
03-26-03, 10:25 AM
See it depends on where you mod at to what ethics you may need to uphold. It all comes down to opinion and all that jazz. I just don't mod here so it didn't seem very uncouth of me. Besides, I've seen much worse here and on other forums. :rolleyes:

OEM system makers do try to give there customers what they want and sorta needs, but they also will tell them they need really expensive stuff and other stuff they don't really need. ;)

Either way, I'm glad we could work this out. I learned from this that some people may write in 180 degrees to what they really are thinking. Nice chatting to you. :)

Sazar
03-26-03, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Quinn1981
See it depends on where you mod at to what ethics you may need to uphold. It all comes down to opinion and all that jazz. I just don't mod here so it didn't seem very uncouth of me. Besides, I've seen much worse here and on other forums. :rolleyes:

OEM system makers do try to give there customers what they want and sorta needs, but they also will tell them they need really expensive stuff and other stuff they don't really need. ;)

Either way, I'm glad we could work this out. I learned from this that some people may write in 180 degrees to what they really are thinking. Nice chatting to you. :)

I take it you liked chicago therefore :)

and yah... I have seen much worse as well :)