NV35: DDR-I or (G)DDR-II?

[Uttar]

Hey,

Just thought I'd open a thread on this, IMO, quite interesting subject.
There has been rumors that the NV35 will use DDR-I. While many reliable sources don't seem to confirm it, it does make a LOT of sense. Remember the hottest part of the NV30 is its RAM ( or it's at least as hot as the core ) ...
And I'm not inventing that, either.

So, what do you think?
If you've got any serious info, please feel free to "speculate" :D


Uttar

[Evildeus]

Well i hope Samsung gets out their new DDR-II revision which puses less volt, so less heat, and everybody is happy.

But well, i don't think it's a good idea to keep the DDR-2 available ATM, too much heat produced unfortunately :(

[volt]

IIRC, there is no DDR I memory that would run at 500MHz (at least not validated). I'm thinking GDDR II.

[SurfMonkey]

It would have made sense, since they re-designed the memory controller, for the design team to have included support for both DDRI and DDRII.

Doesn't the NV31 share some of the NV35's memory controller? In which case it's proven to use DDRI.

It would make sense, IMO, for the NV35 to use DDRI if only to keep the heat down. I think nvidia were pretty embarrased by the reception the FlowFX recieved, and lets face it, it was\is a crap idea.

The difference between GDDR and DDR is only the dual port support (read\write) of the GDDR, right? In which case if the bus characteristics are the same then I don't see any reason (other than price) that the NV35 shouldn't use GDDR.

I would guess they'll be looking for any advantage or free gain they can get with this attempt!! :rolleyes:

[Uttar]

Volt: Hynix got some, IIRC. It was linked several times on B3D forums.

Uttar


EDIT by volt: feck!! sorry I thought I clicked quote Uttar (instead I clicked edit and deleted comments directed to SurfMonkey). Sorry Uttar

[GlowStick]

It would look funny if they Step back from DDRII to DDR... but if it works i think people will accept it.

[Paul]

NV35 uses DDR-II. This has been confirmed by several people, MuFu included.

500Mhz DDR-I just isn't a workable solution for modern, mass-produced GFX cards at this time. For smaller, more specialist items, then perhaps - But not for something on the scale required from nVidia.

[GlowStick]

Hm, when will we be seeing ram made from these .11 processes that alot of ram companines are now annoucing?

[Lezmaka]

One thing I remember hearing about the ram on the NV30 is that it required a higher voltage than regular DDR-II should to get it to run at 500mhz. Never been able to find any source for it tho.

[The Baron]

Hm, when will we be seeing ram made from these .11 processes that alot of ram companines are now annoucing?

You'll see it soon, but it will be A. absurdly expensive and B. ONLY used in huge single chip capacities like 1GB per DIMM.

So... yeah.

[borntosoul]

just something interesting, im not saying its going to use this cause this is what i think the nv40 will use but anyway here is a quote, "GDDR3 will consume half the power of GDDR2 and operate up to 50% faster, according to Terry Lee, executive director of advanced technology and strategic marketing at Micron, Boise, Idaho. "

"Lee said Micron's GDDR3 chips are made with 0.11-micron processing, allowing speeds that could reach 700 MHz for a 1.5Gbit/s data rate. The device will sample next quarter, he said."

look good here is the whole link .
http://www.siliconstrategies.com/story/OEG20030321S0036

[MuFu]

Originally posted by SurfMonkey
It would have made sense, since they re-designed the memory controller, for the design team to have included support for both DDRI and DDRII.

The NV30 memory controller is only DDR-II compliant, AFAIK. If NV35 now uses DDR-I then they've made fundamental changes recently - they supposedly did that alot "just before" launching NV30 and look what happened.

Doesn't the NV31 share some of the NV35's memory controller? In which case it's proven to use DDRI.

Nope - the two are largely dissimilar. The NV31 interface is almost completely new and only supports DDR-I. For NV34, they have borrowed cells from the NV18b.

MuFu.

[Uttar]

Originally posted by MuFu


The NV30 memory controller is only DDR-II compliant, AFAIK. If NV35 now uses DDR-I then they've made fundamental changes recently - they supposedly did that alot "just before" launching NV30 and look what happened.[/b]

I'll take that as a "DDR-I for the NV35? Yeah, sure, but it'll be released in 2005 too" :)

Nope - the two are largely dissimilar. The NV31 interface is almost completely new and only supports DDR-I. For NV34, they have borrowed cells from the NV18b.

MuFu.

That was my impression too. But AFAIK, the NV31 uses some of the *Intellisample 2.0.* technology from the NV35 ( not all of it, though )


Uttar

[Paul]

Just as a side note, The Inquirer today lists 8 "Facts" (take that as you will ;)) about the NV35 - One of which is the use of DDR-I memory.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8587

Chances are they've just got that straight from the news article published a couple of days ago about DDR-I usage, rather than from some insider.

For the record, I still maintain it will be DDR-II.

[Dazz]

I hear the NV35 will have 800MHz 256bit DDR-1 memory, this could be real as 800MHz is the limt of DDR-1 and provides more bandwith over 128bit DDR-2 for the same cost. 25GB/sec bandwith, also they say the NV25 will be able to run PS 1.4 & 2.0 twice as fast as the NV30. Sounds like an over hual then a update :)

[Paul]

The NV25, the previous generation, will out perform the NV30 by 2x? Wow!

:afro2:

[Uttar]

Anand actually confirmed the leaked chip.de specs.
And those included 500Mhz DDR-I.

Sounds like plans changed, MuFu. Would be interesting to know if the controller only supproted DDRI, or also GDDR2.


Uttar

[mikechai]

I don't know why but I kind of believe this post from inquirer this time.


0 It's already up and running in Nvidia's labs!
1 It wil use DDR - not DDR2 (!) memory because of the lower price of memory and PCB, more stability and availability in high volumes
2 It will have 256 bit 400 MHz (may be more for ultra) DDR1 memory interface. And there will be cards with 256 MB of memory, m'boys
3 It will have the same features set and probably near as damnit the same core clock.
4 It will be as twice, and and sometimes a bit more than that, faster in raw shader power for 1.4 and 2.0 pixel shaders whereas the NV30 was not such a strong performer as we wished - so this aspect is pretty tuned up, lads!
5 It shows from 1.5 up to 2.0 thimes performance of NV30 depending on the tasks and the final frequency specs.
6. It will be definitely faster than RADEON 9800 PRO
7. Other side specs like RAMDAC freq are the same as for NV30



The NV35 non ultra will be the card to get (could well be still faster than a 9800 pro, but cheaper)

[MuFu]

Originally posted by MuFu
"Doesn't the NV31 share some of the NV35's memory controller? In which case it's proven to use DDRI."

Nope - the two are largely dissimilar. The NV31 interface is almost completely new and only supports DDR-I. For NV34, they have borrowed cells from the NV18b.

MuFu.

Crap, sorry, I read that totally wrong and was comparing the NV31 and NV30.

Edited out a bunch of stuff - going to try and find out first, post later. :D

MuFu.

[Paul]

Ha, at least i actually got to see what was originally posted this time. Most of the time i come across these "Edit" messages about 6 hours after the event.

[SurfMonkey]

So that means that the NV31 does share mostly NV35 tech for it memory controller!? So it can handle DDRI, but if it's a derivative of the NV30 then it should be able to handle DDRII too. Unless they've completely changed it.

So does that mean that the NV35 can handle both types and that we may see the NV35 derivatives quickly filtering into the mainstream.

Also the regular cards may use DDRI, the Ultras DDRII, and maybe a 256Mb DDRII version to compete with the next R3x0 chip.

[MuFu]

Originally posted by SurfMonkey
So that means that the NV31 does share mostly NV35 tech for it memory controller!? So it can handle DDRI, but if it's a derivative of the NV30 then it should be able to handle DDRII too. Unless they've completely changed it.

It's related to the NV30 in terms of it's pipeline; memory interface technology seems to be pretty mobile and can be transplanted from ASIC to ASIC fairly easily. Take NV34 for example - the pipeline is bastardised NV3x-tech but the memory interface is from the NV18b. The NV31 and NV30 memory interfaces are largely dissimilar, as I said earlier.

Ok - got some info back very quickly! Not much though...

The NV35 memory interface supports both DDR-I and DDR-II. DDR-I support is complete and works well, DDR-II support is questionable - I suspect they have run into problems with the 256MB boards and we may only see 256MB DDR-II NV3x's when Samsung's 2nd gen GDDR2 is widely available (meaning they can use 8x256MBit modules and do away with the stubs - that along with routing & power considerations should allow greater stability at higher clockspeeds).

Makes you wonder how ATi are getting on with their 256MB, 256-bit/DDR-II R350, huh? =\

MuFu.

[SurfMonkey]

Probably not very well, with the upset to the R400 schedule, though they may be able to make up that time, and the delay with the 9600 things have suddenly stopped going quite in ATi's favour. What's next the R390 or the R420?

256bit DDRI@400Mhz is, what?, 25Gb\sec bandwidth and with the 43.35 dets trebling PS2.0 scores, saying that nv my have started to get on top of the driver situation, the NV35 should be pretty mean even at higher levels of FSAA.

[castles in the air mode]
If the base NV30 gets 14fps PS2.0 (3DMark03), the base NV35 is about 2x faster giving ~28fps and now the latest drivers have trebled that score.

I wonder if the NV35 will get ~80+fps with the PS2.0 test. Now that'd be something to write home about :D
[/castles in the air mode off]

[Paul]

re: DDR-I - If nothing else, at least the memory will run cooler this time around.

[Dazz]

You wish, DDR-1 running @ 400MHz frequencey or 800MHz DDR clock will get hot but then again so does DDR-2 @ 1GHz hence ram heatsinks will be needed.