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nekrosoft13
05-21-07, 11:56 PM
A senior Microsoft official said the company has had few takers for modified versions of its Windows operating systems built to conform to European competition requirements. David Heiner, Microsoft's deputy general counsel, said "not a single PC manufacturer has chosen to license" the special editions of its operating systems, which are available only in Europe.
The software, Windows XP N and Windows Vista N, lacks the Windows Media Player media playback software, which ordinarily is integrated into Microsoft's operating systems.

EU regulators ordered Microsoft to unbundle Media Player from some versions of Windows available for sale in Europe after charging that the bundling gave the company an unfair advantage over media player products created by third-party developers.

Microsoft, however, was allowed to offer standard editions of Windows for sale in Europe alongside the N editions, allowing consumers to choose between the two.

Speaking in March to officials at the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, Heiner said European consumers have opted en masse for the full versions of Windows. The N versions, he said, "sit on the shelf."

"PC manufacturers and consumers [in Europe] can now choose to get Windows with or without its media playback functionality. They have chosen the full-featured version of Windows, as might be expected," said Heiner, according to a transcript of his remarks obtained by InformationWeek.

Heiner was speaking to FTC officials to urge them to adopt anti-monopoly measures that promote competition rather than restrict consumer choice.

He said Microsoft's consent decree with monopoly watchdogs at the Department of Justice is a good example of the former. As a result of the deal, he said, "new Windows PCs come loaded up with software from Microsoft's competitors" without limiting consumer access to Microsoft's own products."

By contrast, the EU's decision to order Microsoft to strip out its own media player technology from some versions of Windows has hurt both Microsoft and its European customers, Heiner said. "Costs have been imposed, but there is little apparent benefit for anyone," he said.

Microsoft continues to butt heads with European regulators over the prices it charges to competitors for interoperability protocols for file and print servers.

Microsoft last month dodged -- at least temporarily -- European Union fines of up to $4 million per day by submitting an 11th-hour response to allegations that it continues to overcharge rivals for the tools they need to make their products compatible with the Windows operating system.

The company told the EU that it needs "greater clarity on what prices the commission wants us to charge" and called for more talks on the issue, according to a statement released last month by the software maker.

In his comments to the FTC, Heiner blasted the EU for inserting itself into talks between Microsoft and third-party product manufacturers. "Whether firms choose to take a license, and what kind of products they build with those licenses," Heiner said, "is of course entirely up to them and outside the control of either Microsoft or any antitrust agency."


http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199700542

Wolfhound
05-22-07, 06:42 PM
Here in Spain I think no one will buy an N version, Xp or Vista, I hadnīt seen one of them in any shop

RAY16
05-22-07, 08:14 PM
Bah, of course not. The whole anti-trust shenanigans were coughed up by a bunch of liberal wankers who know nothing about the software industry.

While I certainly don't consider myself to be some sort of Microsoft fanboy, the whole media player anti-trust thing just came off as Microsoft getting bullied by the EU to me.

Indeed (minus some of the unneeded name calling).

I'd like to know exactly how Microsoft including a media player with windows takes away a consumers choice to use something else. It's not like MS bundles their media player with windows and then makes it so you can't use anything else. If somebody wants to use another media player then they have a choice to, if they are happy with what's included with windows then they can stick with that.

It's all a bunch of nonsense.

Ancient
05-22-07, 08:45 PM
The claims of MS being monopolistic have always been garbage. WinAMP proved that if you made a better software product than what MS offered people would use it. Firefox proved the same thing. How long has Opera been around now? 10 years? Access to Urge is integrated right into WMP. Steve Jobs is not scared. IE's search field defaults to Live Search. How many changed it to Google or another search engine?

The worst thing about the claim of MS being a monopoly is that it's a premise based on the idea that you, me, and everyone else are idiots who are far too stupid to decide what works best for them.

evilghost
05-22-07, 09:16 PM
The claims of MS being monopolistic have always been garbage. WinAMP proved that if you made a better software product than what MS offered people would use it. Firefox proved the same thing. How long has Opera been around now? 10 years? Access to Urge is integrated right into WMP. Steve Jobs is not scared. IE's search field defaults to Live Search. How many changed it to Google or another search engine?

The worst thing about the claim of MS being a monopoly is that it's a premise based on the idea that you, me, and everyone else are idiots who are far too stupid to decide what works best for them.

Explain to me how an end-user can gracefully uninstall WMP10 or WMP11 after installation...

grey_1
05-22-07, 09:46 PM
Explain to me how an end-user can gracefully uninstall WMP10 or WMP11 after installation...
What does this have to do with MS being a monopoly though? Theres any number of apps that will happily play ones files by default.

Ancient
05-22-07, 10:33 PM
Explain to me how an end-user can gracefully uninstall WMP10 or WMP11 after installation...
Control Panel -> Add/Remove Programs -> Add/Remove Windows Components -> Uncheck the Windows Media Player checkbox and click Next.

It took me longer to type that than it would to uninstall WMP.

Besides that, in this day and age of multi-hundred GB hard-drives I seriously doubt anyone is going to go ape**** over WMP taking up a few 10s of MBs if they don't uninstall it.

Rakeesh
05-23-07, 12:29 AM
Well, WMP won't handle xvid, divx, mov, rm, MPEG-2 transport streams, and a bunch of others. VLC will though. Not only that but VLC doesn't require you to install codecs for anything. It has its own internal support for tons of compression formats and containers. For that reason, VLC has much cleaner playback than just about anything.

nekrosoft13
05-23-07, 06:35 AM
Well, WMP won't handle xvid, divx, mov, rm, MPEG-2 transport streams, and a bunch of others. VLC will though. Not only that but VLC doesn't require you to install codecs for anything. It has its own internal support for tons of compression formats and containers. For that reason, VLC has much cleaner playback than just about anything.

and here it comes back to the same anti-trust BS, if microsoft would add internal support for all those codecs, they would get sued again.

Lfctony
05-23-07, 08:57 AM
I just install a codec pack, and voila, WMP plays virtually everything...

Ancient
05-23-07, 11:30 AM
and here it comes back to the same anti-trust BS, if microsoft would add internal support for all those codecs, they would get sued again.
Not to mention the support headache if they included the codecs to play all those formats.

evilghost
05-23-07, 11:32 AM
Control Panel -> Add/Remove Programs -> Add/Remove Windows Components -> Uncheck the Windows Media Player checkbox and click Next.

It took me longer to type that than it would to uninstall WMP.

Besides that, in this day and age of multi-hundred GB hard-drives I seriously doubt anyone is going to go ape**** over WMP taking up a few 10s of MBs if they don't uninstall it.

That's how you remove the Desktop icon/profile icons, I'm sorry, that doesn't remove WMP11 or WMP10. [I think]

nekrosoft13
05-23-07, 11:40 AM
XP originally had WMP9, if you install 10 or 11, you can uninstall and go back to wmp9

in vista it removes the icons

but explain to me if the program can let go off al files, why does it matter if it stays, when it takes about 10-15 mb of your hard drive space

evilghost
05-23-07, 11:42 AM
in vista it removes the icons

but explain to me if the program can let go off al files, why does it matter if it stays, when it takes about 10-15 mb of your hard drive space

Evidently our understanding of uninstall differs. ;)

Ancient
05-23-07, 12:20 PM
That's how you remove the Desktop icon/profile icons, I'm sorry, that doesn't remove WMP11 or WMP10. [I think]
Apparently the only person who cares that it doesn't completely uninstall all related files is someone who doesn't use Windows anyway. :p

Besides, I think there are other functions that may still use those files (like ActiveX components and even other 3rd-party applications) so it's probably not wise to uninstall it completely. iirc, even XP Lite still includes many of the files for IE and WMP because they are required for the system to function properly.

nekrosoft13
05-23-07, 12:39 PM
well WMP10 or 11 does get uninstalled on XP, and older WMP gets reverted.

I like WMP, for me it plays every single file i need to, before i used to be a big winamp person, but WMP never did bother me.

like i said, i have over 1tb of space on my main drive. why would i care about 10-15mb

evilghost
05-23-07, 12:57 PM
Apparently the only person who cares that it doesn't completely uninstall all related files is someone who doesn't use Windows anyway. :p

Besides, I think there are other functions that may still use those files (like ActiveX components and even other 3rd-party applications) so it's probably not wise to uninstall it completely. iirc, even XP Lite still includes many of the files for IE and WMP because they are required for the system to function properly.

No, I really don't care, but I was making a point with this :)

What do you call a Media Player that is bundled by default, default associated, and fails to completely or usefully uninstalled (after uninstallation the WMP engine is still used for IE)? I call it a monopoly.

Ancient
05-23-07, 01:35 PM
No, I really don't care, but I was making a point with this :)

What do you call a Media Player that is bundled by default, default associated, and fails to completely or usefully uninstalled (after uninstallation the WMP engine is still used for IE)? I call it a monopoly.
When it comes to monopolies I'm far more concerned about others that are government sanctioned and which provide me no choice whatsoever like the water company, the electric company, friggin' Brighthouse cable charging me up the wazoo because there's no real competition in the area and they do everything in their power to stomp out any potential competition.

In comparison to those, MS is a charity and Bill Gates is Mother Theresa.

Riptide
05-23-07, 01:36 PM
Who frickin cares if you can't "uninstall" it. As long as you can put another player on the machine and it plays your files WTF difference does it make. I've been using Classic for years now and I don't give a rat's ass if WMP is still on the machine. I don't use it. BFD.

evilghost
05-23-07, 01:38 PM
Who frickin cares if you can't "uninstall" it. As long as you can put another player on the machine and it plays your files WTF difference does it make. I've been using Classic for years now and I don't give a rat's ass if WMP is still on the machine. I don't use it. BFD.

I see, because you don't care, no one should care.

I care about things like this, amazing what those 15MB of files can do on a drive with 1TB of free space:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-078.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-024.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-006.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-005.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS05-009.mspx

Ancient
05-23-07, 01:50 PM
I see, because you don't care, no one should care.

I care about things like this, amazing what those 15MB of files can do on a drive with 1TB of free space:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-078.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-024.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-006.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-005.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS05-009.mspx
Good thing I primarily use Vista now since none of those vulnerabilities affect it.

Of course, most of those vulnerabilities require the user to do something stupid as well, like visit a malicious website and click on or download specific content. Even the mighty Linux community hasn't managed to code a patch that addresses the stupid user vulnerability. :D

evilghost
05-23-07, 01:53 PM
Good thing I primarily use Vista now since none of those vulnerabilities affect it.

Of course, most of those vulnerabilities require the user to do something stupid as well, like visit a malicious website and click on or download specific content. Even the mighty Linux community hasn't managed to code a patch that addresses the stupid user vulnerability. :D

I agree, however, just because a current vulnerability for WMP for Vista has not been discovered doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I posted those security articles more to support the point I'm arguing; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_privilege

If you uninstall WMP then it should be uninstalled not pseudo-uninstalled but still runnable/exploitable.

Ancient
05-23-07, 02:10 PM
I agree, however, just because a current vulnerability for WMP for Vista has not been discovered doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I feel the same way about alien life in the universe and I'm keeping my fingers crossed too. ;)

I posted those security articles more to support the point I'm arguing; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_privilege
Kind of like having a single door and no windows on your house. While effective it tends to eliminate some usefullness and niceties.

If you uninstall WMP then it should be uninstalled not pseudo-uninstalled but still runnable/exploitable.
Have Windows Update set to check, download, and autoinstall. Even a computer rookie can easily set that up. Problem solved.

Riptide
05-23-07, 02:22 PM
I see, because you don't care, no one should care.
What Ancient said already. :p

evilghost
05-23-07, 02:28 PM
I hope you guys are running without firewalls too because they're an inconvenience when they start blocking traffic you want to permit.

Sorry folks, comparing the likelihood of discovery of alien life to vulnerabilities in Microsoft software seems like a poor comparison.

An uninstaller that doesn't uninstall is broken, period. Implementation of a default installed application, which isn't uninstallable, with hooks deep into the API, is an exercise of a monopoly.

I'm guessing we'll be discovering alien life soon:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS07-027.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS07-021.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS07-017.mspx