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flukester
06-13-07, 09:20 PM
Anyone seen this yet? Things are not looking good for AMD/ATI
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTM1MSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Sure this is one card but I'm not keeping a candle in the window for ATI. Considering Intel is kicking AMD's ass right now it seems they together are in a lot of trouble. Hard to run a company when you are inferior in nearly every way. And isn't nVidia now aiming to partner closer with Intel?

The question now to me right now is whether nVidia is still going to lower card prices based on recent rumors. Or will they laugh and leave em as is...! If they do lower the prices I think ATI is dead. We haven't even seen much of nVidia's upcoming cards yet... :afro:

Madpistol
06-13-07, 10:11 PM
This is a very touchy subject. There are tons of hardcore intel and nvidia fanboys that would LOVE to see AMD/ATI go under. However, most sensible people (like me) know that that would be a very bad thing because there would be no competition in the market, which means higher prices and lower quality standards. This is bad.... very bad.

You'd better pray that [H] is wrong on this one. AMD/ATI need to survive and make a nice comeback so they can start setting intel and nvidia in their place.

Also, I can't wait until Xion X2 sees this thread. ;)

Mr Bigman
06-13-07, 10:16 PM
Why does lesser competition mean lesser quality control? Thats just pure lazyness from the makers of there product. So that means if Ford was the only ones making cars, they could be crappy and costly.

MUYA
06-13-07, 11:50 PM
There is no end in sight for AMD / ATi just yet. take sa few more cycles than one ala R600. Remeber NV30 for NV, they pulled it around. Yes Barcalona is not scaling well with other issues and R600, was not the "blow the 8800 Ultra" out of the water some claiming to be in the know were claiming but, it takes a lot more.

One missed cycle hurts the bottom line in the immedeate future but, any multi corp can still borrow to stay afloat on high interest etc but, future product sales when a product does deliver next cycle round will keep them afloat because profit from each unit sold and then totaled may well be higher than th interest they have to pay etc.

Madpistol
06-13-07, 11:55 PM
Why does lesser competition mean lesser quality control? Thats just pure lazyness from the makers of there product. So that means if Ford was the only ones making cars, they could be crappy and costly.

If you have no competition, What's the point in investing millions in R&D if you're only competing with yourself? Progress will slow down dramatically if there is no competition. And you're right on the money about cars; if only one car company existed, the cars would be made poorly and very expensive because it doesn't matter. People would still buy them because they are the only entity in a market; if you want it, you buy from them.

Monopolies suck, but competition creates a setup where the consumer wins no matter what the situation is.

ephmrl
06-14-07, 01:15 AM
Let's not lose total sight of the real world now. Even if AMD went under, how bad do you really think it would get? If any company gets too lazy, they leave a window of opportunity open for startups and venture capatalists to fill at some point. And even with only one player in the market, the drive to deliver smaller, faster, cheaper to cash in on economies of scale still ends up introducing better products into the world, though of course at a higher premium since now all those demanding such goods end up competing against each other that much more.

It would be nice for consumers if AMD can remain a true competitor (both in design and manufacturing). Or if they continue to lag, it would be nice if individual investors, creditors, and employees continue to subsidize them staying in the market for the benefit of consumers indefinitely (or at least till their pockets are all empty) - without consumers having to do the same in return of course. But if neither of those scenarios ends up staying true in the near or far future, its not like progress will grind to a halt. Hell, if the market can't even make effective use of 4 core systems, and people aren't willing to pay a premium to advance quickly into 16/32/80 cores anytime soon, exactly how does continued competition on the supply side really help consumers?

It almost seems like the imbalance can't last much longer (reasonably speaking), and unless competition among consumers (and by extension sw/app vendors) increases sharply so that there is demand for the kind of hw power these companies keep investing heavily to produce, that at some point soon they will have to slow waaaaay down because there will be noone willing to pay for it (frenectic pace of improvement in computing power)...

K007
06-14-07, 05:52 AM
If AMD/ATI does go down...the only people that will get screwed will be us. Just imagine the price line..they can just pull out a number out of there ass and dont have to worry about competition.

shoes
06-14-07, 07:41 AM
If AMD/ATI does go down...the only people that will get screwed will be us. Just imagine the price line..they can just pull out a number out of there ass and dont have to worry about competition.

Well put, and any real enthusiast (IMO) doesn't knit pick about running NV, ATI, AMD or Intel. You bought what you wanted because that's what you wanted for what you could either afford, or because you liked the platform better and might give better value. The lack of one or two of these major players in the market means little to no competition for the other which isn't good.

Grov
06-14-07, 09:07 AM
And you deduce that opinion from a hard ocp link? Im lost.

People said the same thing with the 5800.

Trademark
06-14-07, 09:15 AM
Pfft... AMD is not gonna die, even Intel said they believe AMD to survive the storm

MUYA
06-14-07, 09:24 AM
It takes more than one under-performing cycle to take a company like AMD down...the key for AMD is to stop the hemorrhaging by launching a string of competitive Barcelona and R600 successor

Madpistol
06-14-07, 10:25 AM
People said the same thing with the 5800.

The FX 5800 truly did suck though. The 5900 wasn't much better either.

The reason people are so negative towards the HD 2900 XT is because it isn't the "G80" killer that it was rumored to be. However, the price point right now is pefect for the card. It performs right at 8800 GTS 640mb speeds most of the time, and it's priced lower than it, so the HD 2900 XT is priced very competitively.

People just gripe about it because it didn't dethrone the 8800 GTX/Ultra. Oh well... AMD will have another go at it next time around. Hopefully they'll have better luck next time.

flukester
06-14-07, 11:46 AM
Some good points raised here but if you look at AMD's stock prices, they've been falling not rising. AMD was already in a shakey state when they absorbed ATI so that doesn't help. ATI has only ever won 1 round against nVidia and even that I question...I'm not happy that AMD/ATI are as they are but I'm also not convinced ATI is going to come up with another card that is going to top nVidia..nVidia has a whole new lineup of cards that are supposed to double in performance and if that's the case whos gonna buy some cheap ATI card? I don't think any of this is good for PC gaming and that's pretty much why I brought it up.

xbob
06-14-07, 01:03 PM
Both companies have deep engineering staff, good technology, profitable patents and well recognized brands. Even if things get really rough someone will buy them out, AMD isn't going anywhere any time soon. And we should all be glad for that.

Yaboze
06-14-07, 01:19 PM
I think we are starting to see the beginning of what no competition can do to a company. Look at Nvidia lately. Poor drivers for XP and Vista for their flagship product. The prices on the GTX and Ultra are still very high. Drivers are a mess and no longer unified.

Sure, the drivers have improved since the debut of the 8800, but they should have been better by now, 6 months + out.

Another hit for AMD is the new Santa Rosa laptops out by Intel, most of them, including Apple's new MacBook Pro's have the 8600M GT chip, a nice DX10 mobile GPU (if only a little faster than the 7600 series mobile GPU's).

This will drive prices up for Nvidia products because there is no other competition.

AMD still does the GPU on the Wii and Xbox 360, which should help them a bit but it's not the same as selling the cards.

MikeC
06-14-07, 03:43 PM
AMD is going to survive. I believe they will continue to be a boil on Intel's ass for many years to come. I don't think they will overcome NVIDIA in graphics but AMD will keep NVIDIA looking over her shoulder. :p

jcrox
06-14-07, 04:13 PM
Intel and Nvidia are likely hoping, maybe even desperately, that they can bury AMD/ATI now while they have the chance before Stream Processing can really be developed and take hold as both companies are now at a disadvantage when it comes to this future technology.

Nvidia is in the worst position. While they have a great GPU architecture, they have no means of making a CPU with out patent infringement(although they apparently have engineers of that sort working for them now).

Intel, while better off due to their CPU patents still haven't put out a discrete graphics product. While it's true that they are working on one, will it really be able to compete with the likes of a G100 or r800 right out of the gate in the future? not likely.

AMD/ATI- the whole reasoning behind the purchase of ATI was stream processing and GPGPU's. AMD can, and probably is currently, work on developing the worlds first GPGPU based system, which is supposed to be hella fast and make our current systems look like an Atari 2600 by comparison. Think the equivalent of a Cray super computer in your desktop PC. They can do it with both proven CPU's and proven GPGPU's. No worries of how to create some sort of CPU like Nvidia has, and no worries of having to produce from scratch a GPGPU capable of a teraflop+ like Intel has...they have all the parts in front of them to become the hands down leader in computing power.....if they can survive that long. Writing them off at this point is just plain silly. Intel and Nvidia may end up relying very heavily upon each other in the not so far away future.

john19055
06-14-07, 04:17 PM
I would rather have the Radeon 2900XT then the 8800GTS 320mb,looking at the review you showed it looks like the 2900XT is the better card then the 8800GTS 320mb.

centurie
06-14-07, 04:56 PM
if ATI do go under , so will nvidia, people will not pay over the odds on cards ,pc gaming will come to an end, the consols will be number one.
someone said that quality control will go down and prices will go up , thats is true , just look at the 8800's , nvidia over charged for tho's because they had no compatition, and look at the state of the drivers for them, they are still crap................i purchases the new ATI direct x 10 card , because i was disgusted at how nvidia treated the 8800 owners,i don't care who is the fastest card ill purchase an ATI.........ill support them even if many of you don't.

BTW iv always had nvidia cards in the past........not anymore

Sazar
06-14-07, 05:23 PM
And you deduce that opinion from a hard ocp link? Im lost.

People said the same thing with the 5800.

The entire NV3x line, not just the 5800.

And remember what H was proclaiming when the NV30 came out?

They are STILL trying to redeem their integrity and trying a little too hard.

I don't understand how they can even dream about positioning themselves as the moral compass of what is right after the ridiculous stuff they have been involved in, or let themselves be involved in.

It's amusing :)

re ati, they still have a lot of sales and are not going under anytime soon. They need a new product to come out which will reinvigorate them. It's not like they haven't had excellent products since the r3xx came out. The r600 is the first mis-step (besides delays) in a while.

Amuro
06-14-07, 11:40 PM
Well, AMD has about 1.1 billion left in their bank as of last quarter. It's not looking good.

Xion X2
06-15-07, 12:17 AM
Just more sewage rolling out of Hardocp. I'd like to know how they got AA working on Lost Planet since it didn't work on either the 8.37.4.2s or 8.38s for me. It will not let you select AA in the game menu, and the driver does not apply it. They probably used that as an excuse, because they noted the 2900XT was outperforming both GTSs in it when AA wasn't applied.

Unbelievable, those guys. http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif

We are using the latest drivers officially supplied by ATI which are known as 8.37.4.2

Yeah, sure they were. That's why my XT is outperforming even a 640MB GTS in Oblivion at the same graphics settings (4xMSAA, 8xAF, all in-game options maxed):
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1278583&postcount=324

I really would like to confront those guys face to face and give them a piece of my mind. Their actions are downright pathetic and are living proof that you can't believe every review that you read.

MUYA
06-15-07, 12:19 AM
Just more sewage rolling out of Hardocp. I'd like to know how they got AA working on Lost Planet since it didn't work on either the 8.37.4.2s or 8.38s for me. It will not let you select AA in the game menu, and the driver does not apply it. They probably used that as an excuse, because they noted the 2900XT was outperforming both GTSs in it when AA wasn't applied.

Unbelievable, those guys. http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif
Without AA enabled though we noticed something else interesting. It seems that ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT, for the most part, is faster than both GeForce 8800 GTS based video cards in this demo in the outdoor environments. However, in that second performance test “Cave” we found the HD 2900 XT to struggle and drop down below both GeForce 8800 GTS based video cards. You can see this on the graph starting at the 177 second mark and on.

They did not have AA on. Only AF.

They did only comment that enabling AA on would cause adrastic loss in performance and couldn't figure out why AFAICR

MUYA
06-15-07, 12:24 AM
AMD is going to survive. I believe they will continue to be a boil on Intel's ass for many years to come. I don't think they will overcome NVIDIA in graphics but AMD will keep NVIDIA looking over her shoulder. :p
I think the realists know that....takes more than one under performing cycle....

Xion X2
06-15-07, 12:26 AM
They did not have AA on. Only AF.

They did only comment that enabling AA on would cause adrastic loss in performance and couldn't figure out why AFAICR


Yes, they did:

Overall we found some interesting results between the ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT and GeForce 8800 GTS in the Lost Planet Demo. It seems that enabling 2X AA on the ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT causes a very large performance hit, causing the framerates to hit the teens.

They ran the test again w/ AA (or so they claimed). That's what I was referring to, not their published #'s. It's like they had to get a bad word in since the card came out on top in that benchmark.

I have a problem w/ their observation, because I could not get AA to work in either the game panel or the driver on either the 8.37.4.2 or 8.38s which they claim they were testing with. I observed no IQ increase w/ AA enabled in the driver nor a drop in framerate whatsoever. It scored the same on the benchmark test w/ AA disabled and AA applied through the driver at 1280x960, 59FPS.