Really confused! What home cinema speakers do I need for x-fi?

[Jon]

So, I have my PC connected via dvi to the hdtv. Currently audio is handled using the 3.5mm analog connection from the x-fi to the 3.5mm pc input on the tv. I want some 5.1 speakers because I don't like the built in HDTV speakers.

I just want the simplest/most likely to work method. I believe I need to connect either the 3.5mm digital flexijack or the 3x3.5mm analogues to a dolby decoder/receiver.

But I can't decide if its a decoder or a receiver I need (most articles I read appear to use these names interchangeably). I thought the x-fi had a built in decoder but I don't even have the decoder tab in audio console which is clearly shown on creatives website:

http://soundblaster.com/Applications/article.asp?articleID=60487&categoryID=14

I also read that if you use the analogue connectors, the x-fi automatically does the decoding... does this mean if I go analogue I can't use a decoder?

Can anyone help?

[AlphaWolf_HK]

It's best if you use a straight digital connection IMO. Not only do you completely avoid noise caused by EM interference from other devices in your PC (and PC's do have a lot of EM noise compared to pretty much any other audio source) you also avoid the crosstalk problems that are present in the 3.5mm headphone style cables that PC soundcards typically use.

Creative is the one brand of sound cards that doesn't offer much in the way of digital audio though. You can get good sound out of e.g. DVD's by using the S/PDIF passthrough feature connected to your a/v receiver, but you are SOL when it comes to games.

If you must have an x-fi (not really the best audio chipset IMO,) then the only way you'll get digital audio is by switching to the Auzentech Prelude when that comes out.

[Bman212121]

So, I have my PC connected via dvi to the hdtv. Currently audio is handled using the 3.5mm analog connection from the x-fi to the 3.5mm pc input on the tv. I want some 5.1 speakers because I don't like the built in HDTV speakers.

I just want the simplest/most likely to work method. I believe I need to connect either the 3.5mm digital flexijack or the 3x3.5mm analogues to a dolby decoder/receiver.

But I can't decide if its a decoder or a receiver I need (most articles I read appear to use these names interchangeably). I thought the x-fi had a built in decoder but I don't even have the decoder tab in audio console which is clearly shown on creatives website:

http://soundblaster.com/Applications/article.asp?articleID=60487&categoryID=14

I also read that if you use the analogue connectors, the x-fi automatically does the decoding... does this mean if I go analogue I can't use a decoder?

Can anyone help?

The thing is that most recievers have a decoder in them. They are two seperate things, but a decoder is usually a piece of hardware built into the reciever itself. You don't need to use the decoder that is in your reciever to input audio, it is only needed if you are putting in something that wasn't already decoded.

The X-FI has a built in decoder, and you don't really have to set anything to turn it on because it automatically decodes everthing by default. You can use the analog connections (3 x 3.5mm) to your reciever if you have the correct inputs on reciever itself. (Meaning 3 x 3.5 jacks or 3 pairs of RCA's) The easiest way is simply by using an optical cable (digital connection) from the X-FI to the reciever. That will give you 5.1 audio using one cable.

[CaptNKILL]

That will give you 5.1 audio using one cable.
Only on a pre-encoded signal though. Like if you set your sound card to pass through AC3 streams when playing DVDs.

In games (and everything else) you'd get only stereo from an X-FI using any kind of digital connection.

[Redeemed]

Only on a pre-encoded signal though. Like if you set your sound card to pass through AC3 streams when playing DVDs.

In games (and everything else) you'd get only stereo from an X-FI using any kind of digital connection.

Incorrect, if I interpretted his post correctly. You would get db ProLogic surround. You could get this with analog cables as well, but the signal is far cleaner if he went digital.

Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding his post entirely. :o

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Incorrect, if I interpretted his post correctly. You would get db ProLogic surround. You could get this with analog cables as well, but the signal is far cleaner if he went digital.

Well prologic isn't going to get you discrete surround. Prologic converts any stereo source into surround by using "natural cues" (as how dolby describes it) to make some sounds come from the rear channels.

This is OK for DVD's and music, especially if they are specifically mastered for prologic usage, but you aren't going to get anywhere near the same effect in games that you'd get from discrete audio channels.

[Redeemed]

Well prologic isn't going to get you discrete surround. Prologic converts any stereo source into surround by using "natural cues" (as how dolby describes it) to make some sounds come from the rear channels.

This is OK for DVD's and music, especially if they are specifically mastered for prologic usage, but you aren't going to get anywhere near the same effect in games that you'd get from discrete audio channels.

I am aware of this. ProLogic is no where near as accurate as discrete surround- but with games I'm not sure there is really such a thing as "discrete surround". I guess anologue 5.1 might come close... but it is still a far cry from DD or DTS we get with our movies.

For gaming, if surround is your primary focus, I've found that the anologue 5.1 out seems to work very well in most games- and for the ones it doesn't work well with there is ProLogic. Aside from EAX and what I've mentioned, there isn't much else one could do to get great surround in games. And even with EAX you need a game that actually takes advantage of EAX Advanced HD to be impressed- where as the 5.1 anologue route or ProLogic requires no real compatibility from the games' end.

[Bman212121]

Incorrect, if I interpretted his post correctly. You would get db ProLogic surround. You could get this with analog cables as well, but the signal is far cleaner if he went digital.

Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding his post entirely. :o

Nope you read it right buddy. :) I was trying to avoid saying discrete and pro logic surround cause I couldn't remember what the deal was with using the digital versus using the analog. ;) I know that when you are using the digital from your X-FI to say my Z5500's there is some form of 5.1 channel sound going on because if it were only 2 channel than the front and rear would sound the same, and the center wouldn't do anything.

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I am aware of this. ProLogic is no where near as accurate as discrete surround- but with games I'm not sure there is really such a thing as "discrete surround". I guess anologue 5.1 might come close... but it is still a far cry from DD or DTS we get with our movies.

For gaming, if surround is your primary focus, I've found that the anologue 5.1 out seems to work very well in most games- and for the ones it doesn't work well with there is ProLogic. Aside from EAX and what I've mentioned, there isn't much else one could do to get great surround in games. And even with EAX you need a game that actually takes advantage of EAX Advanced HD to be impressed- where as the 5.1 anologue route or ProLogic requires no real compatibility from the games' end.

Correct, except for the games and EAX part. Games are with very few rare exceptions entirely discrete audio. Sound in games consists of just numerous mono sound clips, and those clips are mixed into the individual channels in real-time.

Many game engines only do this with two channel support built into the engine. Most that don't use directsound to process this, the game just tells directsound where the individual sound effect is coming from relative to the "listener," and then directsound automatically takes care of the channel mixing. The same is done with surround as well, with directsound3d. Both directsound and directsound3d use discrete audio; that is they can send completely different audio to each different speaker if desired.

EAX actually has nothing to do with surround processing (aka positional audio) at all. EAX, meaning Environmental Audio eXtensions, is literally just a proprietary set of extensions for directsound3d (and optionally, OpenAL) which add various types of effects (e.g. reverb, echo, chorus, envelope, etc) to a given sample to give it an effect to make it sound like a different "environment" (e.g. hallway, stadium, etc.) EAX AdvancedHD extends EAX a little further by being able to apply multiple effects to a given sound sample, as well as add transitional effects to a sample which e.g. comes from a different type of room than the listener is currently standing in.

With regular directsound3d, in say for example the arena in Oblivion, you can hear those footsteps coming at you from whichever direction, be it front or rear. With EAX extensions, it can sound more like you are actually inside of the arena instead of just your room because of the echo effects that are added. With EAX AdvancedHD, this would sound the same as regular EAX unless you were down in that hallway before you set foot into the arena, and heard something moving in the arena, in which case you'll hear sounds coming from the arena into the hallway where you are standing. Without AdvancedHD you just hear the sounds as if they were from far away in the hallway, with no "distant arena" effect added in. (I don't know if Oblivion uses EAX BTW, this is just a hypothetical example.)

Also the differences between eax 1.0 through 5.0 (aside from AdvancedHD being added in 3.0) are only changes in the maximum number of audio samples that can be processed at a given time.

(and off topic a bit, FWIW, vista doesn't remove eax nor directsound3d as many fud spreaders claim, it just removes HAL support which tends to be buggy, and this made creative freak out because now their marketing team has to change its tactics)

I know that when you are using the digital from your X-FI to say my Z5500's there is some form of 5.1 channel sound going on because if it were only 2 channel than the front and rear would sound the same, and the center wouldn't do anything.

This is actually a function of the z5500, and not your sound card. Your sound card is only sending stereo (e.g. left and right) audio, and isn't applying any kind of effects to it to make the z5500 interpret it differently. The z5500 takes that audio and mostly duplicates what is heard on e.g. the left channel to the left surround channel, the right channel to the right surround channel, blends together the left and right speakers for the center channel, and sends the low frequency sounds to the subwoofer. It then makes some sounds more pronounced from the rear or the front, but it is somewhat random(ish.) But say the game makes an effect that is supposed to come from the right rear channel for example, you generally won't really hear it coming from the right rear, just somewhat on your right side.

Remember that prologic is designed for a cinematic experience. Even with discrete 5.1 audio, movies are supposed to (or at least are intended to, with some exceptions) give you most of the sound from the front, and the surround is only to add ambiance, and not distract from what you are seeing on the screen. For games, prologic is only going to provide just that: ambiance.

Games have a bit of a different approach for surround though. Games, at least FPS games anyways, are supposed to give you the impression that you are actually there.

Think of it like this: In movies, if you are watching two people speak at a restaurant, and behind the "fourth wall" there are some dishes rattling and a waiter speaking. That is just kind of a side effect that adds to the feel of being in the restaurant. You aren't really supposed to be able to make out what the waiter in the background is saying, as that is more of a distraction from the focus of the camera.

In the game however, you should be able to hear the waiter speaking on the other hand, because you aren't just supposed to feel like you are in the restaurant: you are supposed to be in the restaurant, and furthermore you control the camera, so the focus goes wherever you want it to go as you more or less have more control over what is going on in the story, and there really is no "fourth wall." You can't really get this out of prologic, but you can get this out of discrete audio on the other hand.

For this reason, if you are going to combine any creative card with any 5.1 speaker setup, and you intend on primarily using that setup for games, then I would highly recommend using the analog connections and not digital. With that setup, you should use digital for music and movies only. Don't bother with that analog to DTS converter box that creative sells either, as that won't get you anywhere, and really isn't useful for anything IMO.

[crainger]

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

What?

[Redeemed]

Correct, except for the games and EAX part. Games are with very few rare exceptions entirely discrete audio. Sound in games consists of just numerous mono sound clips, and those clips are mixed into the individual channels in real-time.

Many game engines only do this with two channel support built into the engine. Most that don't use directsound to process this, the game just tells directsound where the individual sound effect is coming from relative to the "listener," and then directsound automatically takes care of the channel mixing. The same is done with surround as well, with directsound3d. Both directsound and directsound3d use discrete audio; that is they can send completely different audio to each different speaker if desired.

EAX actually has nothing to do with surround processing (aka positional audio) at all. EAX, meaning Environmental Audio eXtensions, is literally just a proprietary set of extensions for directsound3d (and optionally, OpenAL) which add various types of effects (e.g. reverb, echo, chorus, envelope, etc) to a given sample to give it an effect to make it sound like a different "environment" (e.g. hallway, stadium, etc.) EAX AdvancedHD extends EAX a little further by being able to apply multiple effects to a given sound sample, as well as add transitional effects to a sample which e.g. comes from a different type of room than the listener is currently standing in.

With regular directsound3d, in say for example the arena in Oblivion, you can hear those footsteps coming at you from whichever direction, be it front or rear. With EAX extensions, it can sound more like you are actually inside of the arena instead of just your room because of the echo effects that are added. With EAX AdvancedHD, this would sound the same as regular EAX unless you were down in that hallway before you set foot into the arena, and heard something moving in the arena, in which case you'll hear sounds coming from the arena into the hallway where you are standing. Without AdvancedHD you just hear the sounds as if they were from far away in the hallway, with no "distant arena" effect added in. (I don't know if Oblivion uses EAX BTW, this is just a hypothetical example.)

Also the differences between eax 1.0 through 5.0 (aside from AdvancedHD being added in 3.0) are only changes in the maximum number of audio samples that can be processed at a given time.

(and off topic a bit, FWIW, vista doesn't remove eax nor directsound3d as many fud spreaders claim, it just removes HAL support which tends to be buggy, and this made creative freak out because now their marketing team has to change its tactics)


I'm well aware that EAX is not a form of surround sound by any means, but Creative does want their customers to think otherwise- and that is more or less why I even mentioned it:

http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=209&subcategory=669&product=16559

Turn stereo music and movies into surround sound
X-Fi CMSS-3D technology expands your stereo MP3s and digital movies into surround sound over multichannel speakers, stereo speakers or even headphones. Voices are centered in front of you and ambient sounds are moved all around you.


Also, notice to the right on that page, the Alchemy ad- it says "Get Surround Sound Back".

But yes, I am aware of and agree with everything you said. It is just with CL's marketing most people are unaware that EAX is not actually surround sound. Again, that is the only reason why I mentioned it.

[Redeemed]

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

:POKE:

Auzentech is teh RULAZZZ! :captnkill: (nana2) (nana2) (nana2)

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I'm well aware that EAX is not a form of surround sound by any means, but Creative does want their customers to think otherwise- and that is more or less why I even mentioned it:

http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=209&subcategory=669&product=16559



Also, notice to the right on that page, the Alchemy ad- it says "Get Surround Sound Back".

But yes, I am aware of and agree with everything you said. It is just with CL's marketing most people are unaware that EAX is not actually surround sound. Again, that is the only reason why I mentioned it.

Ah. Yeah, that and alchemy wouldn't really be necessary for EAX either if creative just did it in software. But then if they did that, creative wouldn't be able to make anymore misleading/unrealistic promises about faster framerates with their sound cards.

MS got rid of the sound HAL for a few good reasons. And now that dual core CPU's are becoming the norm, theres practically no need for it at all. In fact you are guaranteed lower latency without HAL these days.

[Bman212121]

Yes this IS getting off topic. The OP asked how he could hook up a reciever to his X-fi that he already owns, not go out and buy other hardware. Sorry if my question led to a tangent but it is kind of important to know how to get true 5.1 sound from the X-fi to his device.

[CaptNKILL]

Here we go again. :rolleyes:
Exactly what I was thinking...

/me bows out of this one :p

[AlphaWolf_HK]

it is kind of important to know how to get true 5.1 sound from the X-fi to his device.

I answered that. See the very last sentence in my response to your question.

[Bman212121]

I answered that. See the very last sentence in my response to your question.

I know, and thank you very much btw. :)

[Jon]

Thanks guys, I've had to read the whole thread a couple of times cause theres lots of tech info here but heres where I've got so far:

1:- I already have a creative x-fi fatality (the one with the 64mb of memory). As it turns out, despite all the marketing and logos on the box, it is a "gaming" card and therefore has no decoding ability! I'm a bit annoyed at this... especially since I paid top money for what I thought was the best card.

2:- Despite (1), I've connected my x-fi (spdif) using digital coaxial to a phillips receiver (with built in dolby digital decoder).

3:- When watching HD-DVD or Blu ray... or most recent DVDs, the receiver display shows the dolby digital logo and summat like 3 2/1.

4:- The sound quality is awesome, and I am really happy with my rear speaker placement, but need to mess around with the placement of my front speakers as I'm sure they could be better (they are quite close together).

[Redeemed]

Thanks guys, I've had to read the whole thread a couple of times cause theres lots of tech info here but heres where I've got so far:

1:- I already have a creative x-fi fatality (the one with the 64mb of memory). As it turns out, despite all the marketing and logos on the box, it is a "gaming" card and therefore has no decoding ability! I'm a bit annoyed at this... especially since I paid top money for what I thought was the best card.

2:- Despite (1), I've connected my x-fi (spdif) using digital coaxial to a phillips receiver (with built in dolby digital decoder).

3:- When watching HD-DVD or Blu ray... or most recent DVDs, the receiver display shows the dolby digital logo and summat like 3 2/1.

4:- The sound quality is awesome, and I am really happy with my rear speaker placement, but need to mess around with the placement of my front speakers as I'm sure they could be better (they are quite close together).

For speaker placement, your reciever should have settings where you can tell it how far each speaker is from the listener's position. That might help some in your situation. ;)

Anyhow, glad to know you got it setup. I'm using a similar setup, except I'm just using onboard audio and an RCA reciever- the sound is awesome. :D

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Thanks guys, I've had to read the whole thread a couple of times cause theres lots of tech info here but heres where I've got so far:

1:- I already have a creative x-fi fatality (the one with the 64mb of memory). As it turns out, despite all the marketing and logos on the box, it is a "gaming" card and therefore has no decoding ability! I'm a bit annoyed at this... especially since I paid top money for what I thought was the best card.

I am not sure if you really meant decoding here, or if you really meant encoding.

Decoding of e.g. DTS, dolby digital, etc to analog outs isn't a terribly useful feature, as most DVD playback software will take care of that job anyways, and that job isn't really taxing on CPU time either. Many cards that do have decoding support in the hardware or drivers will flash all kinds of logos on their box, but don't be fooled as this feature can be had on pretty much any card, as there are numerous solutions for this.

Now encoding e.g. game audio in to dolby digital or DTS to be sent to your receiver, is a whole other thing. For whatever reason, creative is actively against adding this feature in spite of many consumer requests. There is one possible method for you to achieve this on a creative card, but it has a few caveats, such as added latency and a significantly increased CPU footprint for sound processing:

http://www.driverheaven.net/general-discussion/90887-redocnexk-released-realtime-5-1-ac3-encoder.html

[Jon]

I am not sure if you really meant decoding here, or if you really meant encoding.

Decoding of e.g. DTS, dolby digital, etc to analog outs isn't a terribly useful feature, as most DVD playback software will take care of that job anyways, and that job isn't really taxing on CPU time either. Many cards that do have decoding support in the hardware or drivers will flash all kinds of logos on their box, but don't be fooled as this feature can be had on pretty much any card, as there are numerous solutions for this.

Now encoding e.g. game audio in to dolby digital or DTS to be sent to your receiver, is a whole other thing. For whatever reason, creative is actively against adding this feature in spite of many consumer requests. There is one possible method for you to achieve this on a creative card, but it has a few caveats, such as added latency and a significantly increased CPU footprint for sound processing:

http://www.driverheaven.net/general-discussion/90887-redocnexk-released-realtime-5-1-ac3-encoder.html

Errrr, I may have meant decoding. The trick Creative have done is to put dolby digital decoding in the feature list for this version of x-fi. However, when you read the tiny tiny print it says that its "using powerdvd" and they give you a cd with powerdvd 3 on it! Ok I was stupid enough to fall for it... and I have PowerDVD 7.3 anyway and it does the job, but I still don't approve of their marketing.

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Errrr, I may have meant decoding. The trick Creative have done is to put dolby digital decoding in the feature list for this version of x-fi. However, when you read the tiny tiny print it says that its "using powerdvd" and they give you a cd with powerdvd 3 on it! Ok I was stupid enough to fall for it... and I have PowerDVD 7.3 anyway and it does the job, but I still don't approve of their marketing.

Yeah, creatives marketing is extremely deceptive. And truth be told, EAX isn't really that innovative, creative just happened to be the first to get it to the market and patent the sh*t out of it, so nobody else can add effect functions to games but them.

[Redeemed]

Yeah, creatives marketing is extremely deceptive. And truth be told, EAX isn't really that innovative, creative just happened to be the first to get it to the market and patent the sh*t out of it, so nobody else can add effect functions to games but them.

:wtf:

If another company had the resources, I'm certain they could do what they wished. EAX, for the most part, is nothing but extremely fancy (and if used properly) and accurate reverb. I'm sure if a new company with sufficient resources arose that utilized both accurate real-time reverb and true to the source sound placement, Creative could do nothing.

But really, who out there has the resources to create such? I'm sure the processing power to do all that would be insane. It'd sound awesome, but just wouldn't be feasible as the market for such is so small there would probably be no income after one considers operational expenses.

Oh well.

[crainger]

For another company to attempt it would be crazy anyway. It's much better to just do it all via software now. I wouldn't be surprised if Creative turns EAX into a middleware software solution, along the lines of The Miles Sound system. Even then I doubt they could stand up to Miles. Their tech has been used in just about every game made since... Forever!

Even though I do like my EAX. I thinking Creative is going to slip out of the gamer soundcard industry and focus on Portable Media Players. Then again they have their mitts in Vista with OpenAL.