Radeon 9700 not all that?

[sancheuz]

Well, we finally got benchmarks for the radeon 9700. However, even though it totally kills the Gf4 Ti 4600 in performance, and definitely even more in features(128 bit color ect.ect), I really feel that the nv30 will overpower it by alot. In some games, the r300 and gf4 come tied! What is that? It could be the games are not adapted for the technology in the 9700, or we might see a big boost when directx 9 comes out, maybe that will bring the 9700 hundred to it's performance capabilites. But in terms of going out and getting one, I think a wise person would wait for the nv30..Right? I mean, no game out there will use more power than a geforce3 from now to when the nv30 comes out, so there is really no hurry to rush out and get an r300. I think it's better to wait for the nv30. What do you think?

[Humus]

A wise person would rather be someone who doesn't speculate to widely about products that are several months away and instead look at the market today and decides whether they need to upgrade and if so what product to get given the amount of money you're willing to spend.

[Fotis]

Many of the games tested were cpu limited thus equal performance.See what happens when aniso and fssa is on,radeon 9700 pulls numbers like 200%-400% faster than GF4.
Try the UT2003 numbers at anands(Ut2003 not cpu limited)and you'll see the performance gap.
Noboby can know if nv30 will be faster than radeon 9700 because we just don't have the specs or a board to test it.Nv30 might be faster than radeon 9700 but don't expect nv30 to kill it.
It would be a good thing to wait and see what nv30 offers(first nv3dfx card). I just want nvidia to keep to their release dates(hopefully november) and not pull nv30 into 2003.

[sancheuz]

I understand, and i dont deny it, the radeon 9700 is and will continue to be stinking awesome. But what i'm trying to say, is that i think it will be better, anybody with a geforce2 ultra or above as of now, should instead save their money, and wait for the nv30. It will obviously be a better card, I mean i could be wrong, but how can nvidia relese a card that will not defeat the r300. Nvdia will not allow that, and they cant go wrong with probable ddr2 an cinefx and so on.

[Fotis]

Many things can go wrong,for example 128 bit bus.If you check beyond3d's article you'll see that radeon 9700 has alomost all the cinefx features like 65xxx vertex shader instructions.And 128bit color internal procesing.Don't think that any card can output that color in the monitor.They just can't handle it.
Waiting for nv30 to see what it's about isn't a bad idea but we can't say nv30 has 256 bit bus just because radeon 9700 has one!!Why can't nvidia fail once?Nothing last's forever.
Anyway my personal opinion-hope is that nv30 will be faster than radeon 9700 because competition is good for my pocket.

[nin_fragile14]

When Voodoo 5 came up, there was promise of Rampage around the corner, all on paper and theoretical.

You have to upgrade sooner or later. The R300 looks like an amazing card to buy, regardless if NV30 will be out 5 months later. (And who really knows if it'll be THAT much better).

[ChrisW]

Since we are currently on a six month cycle for graphics cards, it seems to me the 9700 should be the top dog until December. That's four months. That only leaves two months for the NV30 to be on top. If you are going to wait for the NV30, you might as well wait two more months to get the R350.

As far as the NV30 is concerned, it took ATI 18 months to make the 9700. I assume the NV30 has taken just as long. If nVidia didn't know what ATI was going to produce until just recently, they will not be able to change it's design.

[Richthofen]

point is ATI still is not on a 6 month cycle.
Do not expect a R350 for the first quarter 2003.
It won't happen.
2nd quater will be the timeframe when the R350 arrives and keep in mind that the NV30 delay has nothing to do with NV35.
I think that once the NV30 is released, Nvidia is on a 4 month cycle until the NV35 like with the GF3TI and GF4TI series.

[jbirney]

point is ATI still is not on a 6 month cycle.

Nope, not yet, but they have commited to improving that. Normally I would take a wait and see approach. If we look back at ATIs past then I could almost bet that wont happen. But over the last 8 months ATI has been a lot better about keeping its word. Lets see if thats they continue keeping their word....

I think that once the NV30 is released, Nvidia is on a 4 month cycle until the NV35 like with the GF3TI and GF4TI series.

That would be the absoulte worse case for NV customers, the board vendors. The will not have time to sell their stock pile of nV30 parts. One of the reasons we did not have the GF4 Ti4200 with the others is that these board vendors complained that they had a lot of stock of GF3 parts they needed to move. So nV held off a bit and gave them a chance to move old parts. A 6 month cycle does nothing to help us get better games. A 4 month cycle is even worse.


sancheuz,

you realize in CPU limited cases you can have a bank of NV30s and it still wont give you one more FPS faster scores. THE CPU just can not keep the cards busy enough so you get a nice flat line. You can beet that the NV30 will show the same results on CPU limited games. Also by your logic if nothing out today taxes the GF3, then no reason to get the NV30 at all...we have to wait until games tax the GF4 which probably is another 8 months away. According to some public info NV expected the NV30 to be 2.5 time faster than the GF4 with AA at 1280x1024 which is very close to what the R9700 is doing now. They two maybe a lot closer than you think.

[sancheuz]

My "logic" is correct. There is NO NEED to upgrade right now if you have a geforce3. Once again, there is no need to upgrade right now if you have a geforce3. The geforce3 will run Ut2k3 just fine which is going to be the best game out there untill splinter cell and doom 3. When is doom 3 coming out? Next year first quarter. When is nv30 coming out? This year december, or next year January. It makes sense, that if you have a geforce 3 or above right now, you dont rush and get a radeon 9700, when in three months a superior card will arrive. John Carmack and everybody else that has used the previewed the nv30 under NDA from nvidia(anandtech, nvmax, beyond3d, nvnews, ect. ect.) has said that the nv30 will be faster than the 9700.

[ErrorS]

yea but with the previews for NV30 they werent basing it off of a card they used.. they were basing it off of a bunch of BS nvidia gave to them. .nvidia said to them "NV30 will be fast" .. so the PReviewers wrote "NV30 will be fast"...

the review at sharkey's lists one of the cons for Radeon9700 as "May be too fast for todays games" .. what will that make NV30?

I do agree if you have a GF3 Ti500 and you're a normal person with a life that doesnt play video games 24/7 that you should be just fine until NV30/R350 ..but still.. if R9700 is "too fast" NV30 is going to be "too fast"

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by sancheuz
My "logic" is correct. There is NO NEED to upgrade right now if you have a geforce3. Once again, there is no need to upgrade right now if you have a geforce3. The geforce3 will run Ut2k3 just fine which is going to be the best game out there untill splinter cell and doom 3.

I have a GF4 Ti4400 and I'm jonesing for this card, big-time. I would agree with your statement if you qualified it by saying that if you don't use AA and/or AF you don't need to upgrade. I don't know about you, but on my P4 2.4B rig, AA and AF bring my GF4 to its knees.

But let me guess: NV30 comes out in December and plays UT2003 within 5% of what the 9700 does and suddenly it'll be time to upgrade, eh?

[sancheuz]

Exactly. You guys are right. The radeon is extremely fast. The nv30 will be extremely fast. But it seems to me that it will be a wiser choice to wait for the nv30, unless, you have lots of money and then you just get yourself a r300 and then the nv30. But i really think that the nv30 will be faster, But you know who cares if its 5 percent or 10 percent faster. GAmes wont use that speed for a long time. I really dont think someone with a geforce4 ti should be in a hurry to get a radeon 9700 though, unless you unnesesarily want to play a ut2k3 at 1600 and at 4x aa ect ect and all at 100 fps +.

[jbirney]

The nv30 will be extremely fast. But it seems to me that it will be a wiser choice to wait for the nv30

The problem with this logic is that there will always be something faster right around the corner. So in theory you should never buy anything as if you wait just a bit longer you will get something better... but we all know we have to suck it up and get something sometime.

I really dont think someone with a geforce4 ti should be in a hurry to get a radeon 9700 though, unless you unnesesarily want to play a ut2k3 at 1600 and at 4x aa ect ect and all at 100 fps +.

This is true for the NV30 as well.

You do realize that all of the special features (DX9, ect) will most likely barly be used. GF3 has been out for a long time. How many fully DX8 games are there out now? Yea you can cont them on one hand. Same thing will happen with the NV30. It will take a long time for DX9 games to show up.. So the only reason to buy one is to take advantage of running the games you own today with more IQ settings cranked (AF, AA)

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by sancheuz
Exactly. You guys are right. The radeon is extremely fast. The nv30 will be extremely fast. But it seems to me that it will be a wiser choice to wait for the nv30, unless, you have lots of money and then you just get yourself a r300 and then the nv30. But i really think that the nv30 will be faster, But you know who cares if its 5 percent or 10 percent faster. GAmes wont use that speed for a long time. I really dont think someone with a geforce4 ti should be in a hurry to get a radeon 9700 though, unless you unnesesarily want to play a ut2k3 at 1600 and at 4x aa ect ect and all at 100 fps +.

Frankly San- if you want (i say want, because no one really needs this, do they?:) ) a next generation card like the R9700, it's pointless to wait 4 months or so to compare it with the NV30. If the NV30 was just around the corner- sure- wait it out- but we're talking X-mas at the SOONEST, with many people thinking it won't be available until 2003.

And what are you waitinf for? Even according to the Nvidia PR dept, the R9700 already is delivering everything the NV30 has promised. Remember the NV30 was meant to compete w/ the R9700, they were in development at the same time. One compnay went w/ the .15 micron process, and the other wanted the advantages of .13 micron. But w/ the .13 micron choice came delay after delay. This card was originally planned for a fall release. Don't expect too much from the NV30, it is just too late in the game for Nvidia to make it much better than they originally anticipated. If you really want a next generation card, and don't want the R9700, and don't mind waiting, a much safer bet would be the NV35. Nvidia is going to lay it all on the table with that one. Have no doubts, the NV35 will mean business...

But they are just rushing the NV30 too quickly at this point.

None of this applies if you're not in the market for a top of the line card, just felt like putting in my .0000002:)

As far as what to expect from the NV30: In Quake III Arena in 1280x1024 with 4x FSAA enabled, NV30 is going to be 2.5 times faster than the GeForce4 Ti4600.
In The Next Doom the board based on NV30 will be able to show 3.5 times or or even more of the performance the current Nvidia`s flagman has to offer us there.
NV30 will score three times more than the GeForce4 Ti4600 in 3D Mark 2001.
Effective HQ Pixel Fillrate (2x anisotropic filtering enabled) of the newcomer with will be about 2.7 times more than that of the fastest NV25.
As for pixel-shading speed, it will be 4 times of the NV25.
Nvidia claims that its upcoming GPU is capable of processing 200 millions triangles per second.

http://www.reactorcritical.com/index.shtml#l1205

Of course, all this does is bring it up to the level of the R9700. Even giving Nvidia the benifet of the doubt, lets say the NV30 will be 10% faster. Is that worth waiting 4 months for? And you'll be waiting for rushed hardeware, and rushed drivers? As opposed to the mature drivers on the R9700, which from the reviews are quite impressive already?

Of course, like I said, it doesn't really matter if you're not in the market for a high end card. It's just that so rairly does high end hardeware justify the price, and the R9700 actually seems close to doing that:)

[sancheuz]

Okay, but i'm going to wait for the nv30. If you wish you can go ahead and get the 9700, but, your going to be feeling bad when the nv30 comes out, with some incredible feature that all the critics are raving about and you blew your budget on the 9700. You understand what i'm saying? Obviously this is a really a fragile subject, but i respect all your wise opinions. What is true is that we are certainly entering into a new 3d era with unlimitled possibilities thanks to the incredible hardware from companies like ati and nvidia.... ;-)

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by sancheuz
Okay, but i'm going to wait for the nv30. If you wish you can go ahead and get the 9700, but, your going to be feeling bad when the nv30 comes out, with some incredible feature that all the critics are raving about and you blew your budget on the 9700. You understand what i'm saying? Obviously this is a really a fragile subject, but i respect all your wise opinions. What is true is that we are certainly entering into a new 3d era with unlimitled possibilities thanks to the incredible hardware from companies like ati and nvidia.... ;-)

WOW- I see you just glazed over when presented with facts from Nvidias own source, if it's not what you want to hear.

Out of curiosity, just what are the ".....incredible feature that all the critics are raving about and you blew your budget on the 9700."

So far, Nvida has kept it a secret:p

[jbirney]

with some incredible feature that all the critics are raving about and you blew your budget on the 9700.

Ok not to be a butt head, but what do you mean about incredible feature that it will have over the R9700? Say I got $400 bucks just burning a hole in my pocket. Give me vaild reasons to wait.

If the NV30 is 10% faster am I gonning to notice it in games that I play? no I wont. Btw these same critic have thrown their weight behind the R9700 as well. But please provide me a list of features that it has over the R9700....


Again you may find some very good points to wait so thats why I am asking this here...

[Matthyahuw]

I'm waiting because no games require a 9700, or an NV30 for that matter...
In no way am I running out and buying a 9700 or NV30 asap...
I waited 6mos after the GF3s came out to get one, and I'll wait another 6mos from now when a game comes out that makes me upgrade...

[fishlung]

Originally posted by Matthyahuw
I'm waiting because no games require a 9700, or an NV30 for that matter...
In no way am I running out and buying a 9700 or NV30 asap...
I waited 6mos after the GF3s came out to get one, and I'll wait another 6mos from now when a game comes out that makes me upgrade...
Ahhhh... the common sense is refreshing. :) Waiting is easy, especially when the prices are so high. So something better might be out by then, but that makes what you wanted initially that much cheaper (hopefully). I sure as heck won't be getting either of these cards, or a Hammer, or any such thing, for a while. Doesn't anyone else around here have financial responsibilities, or is everyone made of money? ;)

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by sancheuz
My "logic" is correct. There is NO NEED to upgrade right now if you have a geforce3. Once again, there is no need to upgrade right now if you have a geforce3.There are plenty of people that held off from buying the GF3/8500 generation to wait for this DX9 generation. Why should they wait longer still when a very capable (um... awesome) product is available now?
It makes sense, that if you have a geforce 3 or above right now, you dont rush and get a radeon 9700, when in three months a superior card will arrive.First off, it's more like four to five months, not three. Second, doesn't it make sense to buy a very capable card that might be nearly equal to what comes out five months later, rather than wait five months and buy a card that is very likely outclassed by a card only two months away?? :rolleyes:
John Carmack and everybody else that has used the previewed the nv30 under NDA from nvidia(anandtech, nvmax, beyond3d, nvnews, ect. ect.) has said that the nv30 will be faster than the 9700. The NV30 doesn't exist in a physical form yet. John Carmack has never touched an NV30, because there is no NV30 to touch.

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by Richthofen
point is ATI still is not on a 6 month cycle.
Do not expect a R350 for the first quarter 2003.
It won't happen.
2nd quater will be the timeframe when the R350 arrives and keep in mind that the NV30 delay has nothing to do with NV35.
I think that once the NV30 is released, Nvidia is on a 4 month cycle until the NV35 like with the GF3TI and GF4TI series.
NVIDIA historically takes roughly a year between new core architectures (NV10 to NV15, NV15 to NV20, NV20 to NV25, NV25 to NV30). What makes you think they'll be able to make the next core in only four months?? :rolleyes:

I think you're forgetting about all the true "six-month" refreshes: GF 256 DDR, GF2 Ultra, GF3 Ti, NV28. You might see a faster clocked NV30 next spring, but don't look for the NV35 before late next fall.

[sancheuz]

Jesus Christ people. I hope nobody got offended because of my comments. Once again, my only point and the only thing I meant to say from the beggining, is that if a person has a good video card right now, it would be better to wait till nvidia announces the nv30 and what it has, so that you can then compare it the 9700 and make a wise choice in which card to spend 400 dollars in. It doesnt matter if its 3, 4, or 5 months away. 400 is alot of money. If I spend 400 dollars, I want the best of the best and only the best.

[sancheuz]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
There are plenty of people that held off from buying the GF3/8500 generation to wait for this DX9 generation. Why should they wait longer still when a very capable (um... awesome) product is available now?

That then means that that person doesnt have a geforce3 therefore they should upgrade. I was reffering to those that already do have a geforce3 or above. They wont need to upgrade for a 4 to 5 months.

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by sancheuz


That then means that that person doesnt have a geforce3 therefore they should upgrade. I was reffering to those that already do have a geforce3 or above. They wont need to upgrade for a 4 to 5 months.

You're making a classic mistake. You're extrapolating your needs/wants and assuming they fit for everyone else. It doesn't work that way.