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|MaguS|
08-12-07, 11:07 AM
http://www.develop-conference.com/developconference/downloads/vwsection/Deferred%20Rendering%20in%20Killzone.pdf

If anyone is interested on how they got Killzone 2 looking so dam good heres a nice tech document. Seems like they are able to accomplish what alot of developers are still trying to think about how to do things, like Deferred Rendering with AA. Lots of nice little info in it aswell as how a developer can take advantage of the SPUs.

The doc also states that the graphics engine is not complete yet, they plan to add far more features...

Mr_LoL
08-12-07, 01:13 PM
Really looking forward to this. It better not disappoint.

Lyme
08-12-07, 04:03 PM
IMO all the interesting details are from page 43 to 55. This presentation really shows the differences in strong points between the PS3 and 360, assuming you know the traditional 360 architecture. In a nutshell the killzone team has (and this is just a generalization) written a software renderer using spes and only uses the RSX on a superficial level.

It looks like they did a lot of really nice custom work. I wouldn't expect killzone to be ported to any other platform without great expense.

|MaguS|
08-12-07, 04:10 PM
I wouldn't expect killzone to be ported to any other platform without great expense.

Can't happen, Sony owns the license and Guerrilla Games. The original was a 3rd party title but Sony purchased them after the saw their "Technical skills". This could be why we see such strong use of the SPUs. It's pretty much the norm right now that all 1st party titles are excelling in creating engines designed around the PS3 while 3rd parties are just now starting.

Marvel_us
08-12-07, 08:00 PM
Thanks for the link. I'm interested in seeing how their final particle effects turn out. The lighting and shadowing so far is amazing though.

Lyme
08-12-07, 09:23 PM
Can't happen, Sony owns the license and Guerrilla Games. The original was a 3rd party title but Sony purchased them after the saw their "Technical skills". This could be why we see such strong use of the SPUs. It's pretty much the norm right now that all 1st party titles are excelling in creating engines designed around the PS3 while 3rd parties are just now starting.

Puts the nail in that coffin, even if I was simply giving my impression from a technical standpoint of which you reiterated.

Badboy_12345
08-13-07, 04:00 AM
soooo.... is there anywhere in those docs about how they are going to fix the ultra ultra ultra low wii like textures? :lol:

Lyme
08-13-07, 10:35 AM
soooo.... is there anywhere in those docs about how they are going to fix the ultra ultra ultra low wii like textures? :lol:

I expect that the reason the textures are limited to a max size of 512x512 is because all the textures must reside in main memory and there isn't much of it.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 10:50 AM
soooo.... is there anywhere in those docs about how they are going to fix the ultra ultra ultra low wii like textures? :lol:

You mean the single low res texture (one on the dropship) in the trailer? The entire trailer shown looks better then any other FPS found on a console.

Lyme, They don't have to fit the entire levels textures in the RAM, they can stream it from the HD.

Lyme
08-13-07, 11:45 AM
Lyme, They don't have to fit the entire levels textures in the RAM, they can stream it from the HD.

I didn't say they did but then again I was a little vague. The engine requires that all the textures in the scene must be loaded into main memory, rather than simply in graphics memory. ps: both OpenGL and DirectX offer texture sizes up to 2048x2048, and they don't have to be square or be ^2 anymore.

Badboy_12345
08-13-07, 12:01 PM
You mean the single low res texture (one on the dropship) in the trailer? The entire trailer shown looks better then any other FPS found on a console.

Lyme, They don't have to fit the entire levels textures in the RAM, they can stream it from the HD.

there were super-low textures all over the place...

GoW looks 10 times better than Killzone 2

Mr_LoL
08-13-07, 12:08 PM
there were super-low textures all over the place...

GoW looks 10 times better than Killzone 2
GoW does not look 10x better than this. Stop being an annoying trolling tard.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 12:30 PM
I didn't say they did but then again I was a little vague. The engine requires that all the textures in the scene must be loaded into main memory, rather than simply in graphics memory. ps: both OpenGL and DirectX offer texture sizes up to 2048x2048, and they don't have to be square or be ^2 anymore.

Im still trying to figure out where you got the idea that the textures are limited to 512x512 in size? That limit is only for shadow maps, not actual textures.

Lyme
08-13-07, 01:00 PM
Im still trying to figure out where you got the idea that the textures are limited to 512x512 in size? That limit is only for shadow maps, not actual textures.

The document is badly worded in that area but I think you have it wrong.
Page 32: Max 1024x1024xD16 shadow map
Page 36: Max 512x512 pixels each in single texture

The game from the screen shots does look good.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 01:27 PM
Lyme, no offense but this is the worse case of selective reading I have ever seen...

It's a bullet point for rendering shadow maps per area... aka a single texture cannot have more then a four 512x512 shadowmap when using Cascade Shadows maps.

Lyme
08-13-07, 06:52 PM
Possibly selective reading, but then I've never heard of a engine that uses shadow maps and textures of different sizes.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 07:24 PM
Possibly selective reading, but then I've never heard of a engine that uses shadow maps and textures of different sizes.
Um many do. Hell many PC games have different settings for shadow quality and texture quality... thats basically the same thing.

jlippo
08-14-07, 05:00 AM
Possibly selective reading, but then I've never heard of a engine that uses shadow maps and textures of different sizes.
I'm sorry, but that must be one of the strangest things I have ever heard.
There has already been different resolution maps in same meshes for over 10 years.
This includes lightmaps from texture atlas and albedo/color map, this was in Quake1.
Also different sizes and dimensions of actual textures have been used for ever from simple 1D 16 wide array to 3D textures for attentuation lookups.

Shadowmaps are totally independent on objects as shadow map is just projected to the the world from a point or plane of the light and can be whatever resolution possible for GPU.

In game you can have a object which describes a key with texture which has zise of 32x32 and a human character with texture sizes of body 1024x1024 and head 512x512 would you create different shadow map for each of them?
I doubt it.

npras42
08-14-07, 10:20 AM
there were super-low textures all over the place...

GoW looks 10 times better than Killzone 2

ROFL... Good one!

That was a joke right??? :rolleyes:

Lyme
08-14-07, 11:42 AM
I'm sorry, but that must be one of the strangest things I have ever heard.
There has already been different resolution maps in same meshes for over 10 years.
This includes lightmaps from texture atlas and albedo/color map, this was in Quake1.
Also different sizes and dimensions of actual textures have been used for ever from simple 1D 16 wide array to 3D textures for attentuation lookups.

Shadowmaps are totally independent on objects as shadow map is just projected to the the world from a point or plane of the light and can be whatever resolution possible for GPU.

In game you can have a object which describes a key with texture which has zise of 32x32 and a human character with texture sizes of body 1024x1024 and head 512x512 would you create different shadow map for each of them?
I doubt it.

Good answer, however you still sound insane supporting a engine that only provides a maximum shadowmap size of 1024x1024 when your maximum texture size is larger (eg: 2048x2048). Forcing the artists to either use lower resolution shadowmaps that are stretched or to make four of them if you want a high resolution shadowmap is pretty silly.

BTW:
-Quake 1 used a) square textures b) they had to be a power of 2 in size.
-Non-square textures were added as a feature in the DirectX 6/opengl 1.1 timeframe.

|MaguS|
08-14-07, 12:03 PM
Most games have low resolution shadow maps, ever play a recent EA game? Heck the tech document seems to imply they fixed one of the most netorious issues with recent games, that being the flickering shadows. Shadows don't need to be at such large resolutions either since for the most part they lack most details.

jlippo
08-15-07, 07:11 AM
Good answer, however you still sound insane supporting a engine that only provides a maximum shadowmap size of 1024x1024 when your maximum texture size is larger (eg: 2048x2048). Forcing the artists to either use lower resolution shadowmaps that are stretched or to make four of them if you want a high resolution shadowmap is pretty silly.

BTW:
-Quake 1 used a) square textures b) they had to be a power of 2 in size.
-Non-square textures were added as a feature in the DirectX 6/opengl 1.1 timeframe.
I'm quite sure that the engine can theoretically use 4096x4096 shadow maps which is the limit of RSX.
Most likely the size was decided as a compromize between shadow quality and memory usage.
I'm sure people here wouldn't have wanted that they use even less memory for actual textures. ;)

Splitting shadow map in cascaded paraller-split shadow map has a lot to do with quality and it is not just a silly thing to do.
http://appsrv.cse.cuhk.edu.hk/~fzhang/pssm_project/

Shadow size has little to do with artists, they do not do the shadow maps, the game renders a new one for every frame.
In KZ2 they do have sun occlusion term in the levels which would be closer to old good shadow/light texturing, but GG never told the size of it and it is most likely streamed from the disk during gameplay.