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|MaguS|
08-13-07, 12:40 PM
I found this amusing, the Producer for the new Splinter Cell game went on the record that the game would not be possible on the PS3 because it could not handle AI as good as the X360.

Where the hell do they come off as sounding like they can even do good AI? Has any SC game ever had reasonably smart AI? None that I can remember, most of the enemies always ran up and started shooting in the nice open area. Yeah the games are fun but are they smart? I think Gears of War has smarter AI then that of any SC game...

These are the same guys who only developed the series on the past systems, nothing current gen.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/smack-talk/splinter-cell-producer-trashes-ps3s-ai-capabilities-288817.php

Marvel_us
08-13-07, 12:43 PM
Even kotaku aren't too sure about those claims. Meh, I just hope for their sake the game is good.

Knot3D
08-13-07, 01:17 PM
As a vintage SC fan, I really dislike the direction of this Conviction game.

Even MGS4 now resembles vintage SC more than Conviction, so i'd choose MGS4 + PS3 over Conviction anyday :D

About the Ai... well, i guess we all know that it's just Ubisoft who is not as good at PS3 coding as Konami is.

Mr. Hunt
08-13-07, 01:28 PM
I enjoyed the SC franchise until Double Agent (yay EA2/Ubi)... but the AI has always been rather stupid.

nVJoe
08-13-07, 01:30 PM
I found this amusing, the Producer for the new Splinter Cell game went on the record that the game would not be possible on the PS3 because it could not handle AI as good as the X360.

Where the hell do they come off as sounding like they can even do good AI? Has any SC game ever had reasonably smart AI? None that I can remember, most of the enemies always ran up and started shooting in the nice open area. Yeah the games are fun but are they smart? I think Gears of War has smarter AI then that of any SC game...

These are the same guys who only developed the series on the past systems, nothing current gen.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/smack-talk/splinter-cell-producer-trashes-ps3s-ai-capabilities-288817.php

Basically you are saying that the PS3 is not powerful enough to handle bad AI. LOL

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 01:33 PM
Basically you are saying that the PS3 is not powerful enough to handle bad AI. LOL

yeah... No Im saying that teir excuse as to why its not coming to the PS3 is bull****. They are making it sound like their AI routines are so advance that only the X360 can handle it yet the PS3 is far more capable for AI routines then the X360 thanks to the SPUs.

BTW, Where have you been? Haven't seen ya around lately.

Namrok
08-13-07, 01:36 PM
Short memory you guys. This was among the things the cell architectures was criticized for before the PS3 even came out. The 8 SPEs aren't really built to do logic. They are built to number crunch. Basically they don't do gameplay. At least not in any conventional sense. This includes AI. There is only the 1 PPE core to do that.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 01:39 PM
Short memory you guys. This was among the things the cell architectures was criticized for before the PS3 even came out. The 8 SPEs aren't really built to do logic. They are built to number crunch. Basically they don't do gameplay. At least not in any conventional sense. This includes AI. There is only the 1 PPE core to do that.

Actually many devs are using the SPUs to handle AI code, hell some are going even further and handling graphics rendering with them.

nVJoe
08-13-07, 02:04 PM
yeah... No Im saying that teir excuse as to why its not coming to the PS3 is bull****. They are making it sound like their AI routines are so advance that only the X360 can handle it yet the PS3 is far more capable for AI routines then the X360 thanks to the SPUs.

BTW, Where have you been? Haven't seen ya around lately.
LOL! You can't run away from what you said. Your words as I highlighted were funny. :p

BTW I am just messing with you. I understand your point and as you know I like the PS3. It just needs more games. ;)

My opinion on the AI in SC is that it has to be dumb. The whole idea of the game is to sneak around stupid mercs to get to your objective. LOL! If they reacted like real people the game would be very short and boring because your ass would be capped every time you tried to get into a building.

I've been around. I just don't post in these gaming boards to much because I am not interested in the Sony vs. Microsoft vs. Nintendo stuff. I just like to play games.

Short memory you guys. This was among the things the cell architectures was criticized for before the PS3 even came out. The 8 SPEs aren't really built to do logic. They are built to number crunch. Basically they don't do gameplay. At least not in any conventional sense. This includes AI. There is only the 1 PPE core to do that.
Does this mean the colors are pretty and I get to kiss the girl at the end of the game?

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 02:09 PM
There is a differnece between realistic AI and just smart AI. FEAR and MGS3 have smart AI, they know how to stay alive and their surroundings enough so that they can take the fight to a good level.

SC enemies were dumb as posts... they would see you and either stand in the open and fire at you or run up to you and fire at 3 feet away.

thor1182
08-13-07, 02:11 PM
Actually many devs are using the SPUs to handle AI code, hell some are going even further and handling graphics rendering with them.


If you want a game to be on a PC, and a console, and take advantage of multi cored CPU's, then yes a PS3 is a waste of time. Sony knew they were not making a dev friendly machine, and now they will pay the price for it. Sure its possible to do AI on them, but they don't excel at it. The 360 CPU's have the same design considerations as a PC CPU, hence is will be a crap ton easier to get advanced AI code paths to run on it.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 02:14 PM
If you want a game to be on a PC, and a console, and take advantage of multi cored CPU's, then yes a PS3 is a waste of time. Sony knew they were not making a dev friendly machine, and now they will pay the price for it. Sure its possible to do AI on them, but they don't excel at it. The 360 CPU's have the same design considerations as a PC CPU, hence is will be a crap ton easier to get advanced AI code paths to run on it.

Thats the thing, To truly see the benefit of the PS3s hardware the games have to be coded for it. Multiplatform games will never excel on the PS3 unless they begin their life on it and then find their way to the other platforms. Even Sony has said this, they know that the PS3 can't be coded for like a traditional system but when its actually being coded for properly the work pays off. Look at the first party titles and you will really see how the system shines.

thor1182
08-13-07, 02:23 PM
still doesn't detract they made a dumb design decision with the PS3's architecture and made a system that devs don't want to program for. The Cell should never have been used in the way it is being used in the PS3. Its a good on paper, and if you try really really hard, yeah you can get something out of it. But why the hell do you want to make people spend that much extra time to get some great affect out of a system, when if they took a design route in line with the rest of the industry, devs could spend more time on the game itself, and less on engines?

toxikneedle
08-13-07, 02:53 PM
MS paid for SC: Conviction exclusivity, this is Ubi's spin on why it's gonna be exclusive. There's no point arguing this because the reasoning behind it is money not AI capabilities. So all of you are pretty much beating a dead horse arguing about this.

Marvel_us
08-13-07, 03:33 PM
MS paid for SC: Conviction exclusivity, this is Ubi's spin on why it's gonna be exclusive. There's no point arguing this because the reasoning behind it is money not AI capabilities. So all of you are pretty much beating a dead horse arguing about this.

Bingo. It's not even like PS3 fanboys were raving for an excuse as to why it isn't coming to their system.

Saintster
08-13-07, 03:56 PM
I played the first SC but really it isn't my type of game. They are cool games I personally can't get into them.

Morrow
08-13-07, 04:35 PM
They are making it sound like their AI routines are so advance that only the X360 can handle it yet the PS3 is far more capable for AI routines then the X360 thanks to the SPUs.

Maybe they are making it sound like that because it's like that :)

Out of the 8 SPEs the PS3 has only one is capable of doing decent AI or physics calculations which limits how complex these calculations can be.

The cell is very efficient at doing straight-forward calculations like folding@home but don't throw tasks which require branch prediction at the cell or it will fail miserably... and that's essentially the problem with very complex AI. The cell just wasn't designed for that.

I'm not saying that SC:conviction will be really mind-blowing when talking about its AI but if Ubisoft really tries to do some amazing AI stuff unlike the other SC games, the cell stands in their way, no doubt.

Morrow
08-13-07, 04:40 PM
Actually many devs are using the SPUs to handle AI code, hell some are going even further and handling graphics rendering with them.

AI? No. Graphics? Of course.

The SPEs are great for doing the graphics part of any engine (especially shaders) but are very limited for AI, physics, gameplay and other random stuff.

Remember that Sony initially didn't intend at all to ship a GPU with the PS3. The plan was that all graphics should be rendered in software because the SPEs are very good at that. Nvidia came only very late into the development process because Sony found out that it would be nevertheless better to have a dedicated processor to help the cell with different graphics calculations.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 04:43 PM
AI? No. Graphics? Of course.

The SPEs are great for doing the graphics part of any engine (especially shaders) but are very limited for AI, physics, gameplay and other random stuff.

No, The SPEs are capable of AI and Physics more then a general CPU, don't think otherwise. Many games are already using it for such things. LAIR has ai routines running through the SPEs and Uncharted is using it for physics. SPEs are very flexible, yeah they can only do a single operation at a time but thats what makes them so good. Even then insomniac claims that you can juggle operations in a single SPE that it can do more then a single thing.

AI and Physics are heavy math oriented programming which the CELL is designed for. That is also why it can do graphics so much better then a general purpose cpu and why sony originally intended to only have the CELL but due to difficulty to code for two of them they decided to go with the RSX for graphics processing.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/techpage.php

Lyme
08-13-07, 05:26 PM
The SPEs are very powerful little units and capable enough to do rendering, ai and physics. Then again if you had a few 8088s that ran at the speed the ps3 does you could do all the above on them.
The point isn't that SPEs underperform, because they don't. It isn't that you can't do virtually any operation on a very simplistic cpu, because you can. The point is that while the PS3 aka the Cell is a very powerful cpu it is bloody hard and expensive to get the performance out of it. In a time when most development companies use one or two game engines are rarely write their own, in a time when most programming is done with pre-written libraries, in a time when most architectures are following a similar line of thought.. Sony goes and does something completely different.
If this does one thing, it makes first rate games costly to develop on the ps3 and that is why you are seeing the 1st party titles go that extra mile, because they are bankrolled by Sony, and many 3rd party titles saying "screw it, I'll develop for the 360 now, and the PS3 once the platform matures".

So Magus is correct when he says it can do all these things, and do them well. However it still doesn't change the fact the PS3 is extremely hard to develop for. By the looks of things right now, the guys making KillZone were writing their game engine for the PS3 before the RSX was added to the design.

Marvel_us
08-13-07, 06:11 PM
Ummmm...yea, what the hell is going on in this thread?

PS3's Cell now has 8 SPEs, isn't good at physics calculations and has one SPE that is better than the others...interesting.

slick
08-13-07, 06:18 PM
I swear to God Magus let it go. You are the biggest fanboy and you've been hitting critical mass as of late. You may be the new Nv40.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 06:23 PM
I swear to God Magus let it go. You are the biggest fanboy and you've been hitting critical mass as of late. You may be the new Nv40.

I can still write proper posts and most of the time I consider them unbias since I don't aim to derail a thread to Xbox vs PS3. I do post alot of positives about the PS3 but rarely do I make it a "OMG PS3 > Xbox!!!111".

I never denied that I am a fan of the PS3 and prefer it over other consoles but I never denied its bad side nor do I not give props to the X360 when it is due.

Ninja Prime
08-13-07, 07:32 PM
Hmmm lets review, Magus posts threads about how PS3 is a wonder machine that can cure cancer and make games 360 can't even think about thinking about, but when a developer comes out and says you couldnt do something on PS3 its all "OMFG, bastards!!! They must be wrong!1111 I hate them forever for even insinuating that the PS3 is the most powerful computing device in the history of the world and the future too!"

Sounds about right.

|MaguS|
08-13-07, 07:36 PM
Hmmm lets review, Magus posts threads about how PS3 is a wonder machine that can cure cancer and make games 360 can't even think about thinking about, but when a developer comes out and says you couldnt do something on PS3 its all "OMFG, bastards!!! They must be wrong!1111 I hate them forever for even insinuating that the PS3 is the most powerful computing device in the history of the world and the future too!"

Sounds about right.

No, Its more like I make a post about the PS3 or a game on the PS3 and then every xbot comes along and derails it into a console war. I started this thread in discussion about how rediculous the developers comments were considering what we have already seen in the past with Splinter Cell games. Sure they could have rewritten everything we know about Splinter Cell, but im willing to bet against that... considering the developer.