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walterman
08-29-07, 05:16 PM
It's a good editorial, i liked it:

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=445

Mark Rein from Epic Games, who was in charge of the development team on Unreal Engine 3, as well as being responsible for the creation of titles like Unreal Tournament 3 and Gears of War has pointed out the cost problems of developing DX10 games. The price of a higher end DX10 compatible PC graphics card does not compare favourably to the price of a console, in some extreme cases you will pay double the amount for a graphics card than you would for a console.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=41483

On the topic of DirectX 10, which the new Unreal Engine supports, he is particularly pessimistic. "It's not commercially viable to go nuts with DX10 today," he moans, echoing sentiments heard from other games publishers recently. "I don't think you're going to get much higher [quality] until the next generation of consoles... the gulf between a high-end PC and a low-end PC is bigger now than it's ever been... and it becomes less and less economically viable to do the super high-end stuff."

Enjoy !

|MaguS|
08-29-07, 05:20 PM
the gulf between a high-end PC and a low-end PC is bigger now than it's ever been
This is basically what I have been saying... It's not consoles that are slowing the process down but rather the growth of the PC Scene. Low end PCs are so weak that they can't even run a console game properly. I mean Geforce MX? Many games can't even run on that because it lacks proper Direct X support...

SwedX
08-29-07, 07:10 PM
Well Idiots like Mark dont have a clue .it was the same douchbag who said woow the 360 roXXors and a Pc cant come close in a few years to it and now allready the Pc version of gears will be totaly supreme..
the dude is the biggest moron in the industry and I cant think of annywon listening to all the BS that he speaks!

High end games sells more then plenty if its good..just take a look at Farcry and FEAR it sold ****loads of copies that a fact..games like these have such a momuntum that it sells well over years becouse ppl upgrade for titles like that. thats one part of the great thing about Pc gaming.

Mark moron POS Rein why dont you just STUFK or go kill yourself fuc.ing homo and pleaze take the console boys with you!

|MaguS|
08-29-07, 07:25 PM
Well Idiots like Mark dont have a clue .it was the same douchbag who said woow the 360 roXXors and a Pc cant come close in a few years to it and now allready the Pc version of gears will be totaly supreme..
the dude is the biggest moron in the industry and I cant think of annywon listening to all the BS that he speaks!

High end games sells more then plenty if its good..just take a look at Farcry and FEAR it sold ****loads of copies that a fact..games like these have such a momuntum that it sells well over years becouse ppl upgrade for titles like that. thats one part of the great thing about Pc gaming.

Mark moron POS Rein why dont you just STUFK or go kill yourself fuc.ing homo and pleaze take the console boys with you!

I love how you call Mark Rein a morron yet he is part of one of the most successful development teams aswell as makes more money then your entire family in a single month.

Very few PC games ever get over the 1 million mark and the ones that do are not the ones that are pushing the boundries in graphics or physics but are the ones who grasp the most people. WoW was able to accomplish this because of its flexible engine as does the SIMS. Farcry and Fear sold like crap when compared to good console games (not even AAA ones).

Keep commenting on how he is such a big morron yet you idiolize Carmack whos game and engine are barely used because it has no flexibility.

So please shut the **** up.

SOAD
08-29-07, 07:26 PM
hmm it could change. I mean Dell are offerign C2D in their cheap ass pcs. That good enough.

If only they would up the graphics slightly......

|MaguS|
08-29-07, 07:42 PM
Wana blame consoles go ahead but any PC Gamer that does is an idiot. If it weren't for consoles the game industry wouldn't have had the growth it did.

The true problem is companies like DELL, Gateway and any other prebuilt manufacturer. They sell systems ranging from $300 to $3000 but you can only get a decent gaming gpu in one of them if you plan to spend $1600+ and even then they don't make customers that are not aware of actual hardware capabilities of what their PC is really capable of.

Dells entry gaming systems...
http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/cto_xpsdt_210?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

You don't even have the option to add a better GPU for gaming... you have to go to $1K plus for just the option where they even will charge another $600 for the card. No parent would be willing to pay that when they can buy a Wii or an X360 for 1/3rd the price. Remember many people don't know much about hardware so they think for $900 they are getting a great system because all the flashy text DELL has and they even say PERFORMANCE.

Let us not ignore nvidia and ati aswell, they too are the cause of the problem. Why do they release graphics cards that lack many features yet state they are "Direct X9 Compatible" yet they can't play SM2.0 games. Budget cards are hurting developers because their are more of them available on the market then people using GTS/GTX cards so developers have to program with those people in mind. Sure lately we have been seeing more games ignore them but more often then not developers try to bend their engines so that PC owners with these cards can play their games.

That is why they favor consoles, when you don't need to bend your design decisions because you know everyone has the same thing it makes your life alittle easier. Developers don't have to focus on the common denominator anymore.

JohnDio
08-29-07, 08:43 PM
Actually the games that sell 1 million copies are the overhyped ones ;). It doesn't matter if it's a great game which has great gameplay.......if it's marketed right it will sell A LOT OF COPIES. Just look at The Sims :p

conroejoe
08-29-07, 08:47 PM
I love how you call Mark Rein a morron yet he is part of one of the most successful development teams aswell as makes more money then your entire family in a single month.

Very few PC games ever get over the 1 million mark and the ones that do are not the ones that are pushing the boundries in graphics or physics but are the ones who grasp the most people. WoW was able to accomplish this because of its flexible engine as does the SIMS. Farcry and Fear sold like crap when compared to good console games (not even AAA ones).

Keep commenting on how he is such a big morron yet you idiolize Carmack whos game and engine are barely used because it has no flexibility.

So please shut the **** up.

Ok.. I have to step in here and say something...

"Mark Rein from Epic Games, who was in charge of the development team on Unreal Engine 3..."


I'm sorry but Mark Rein is an idiot. Anyone that would spearhead a next generation engine that doesn't allow Anti Aliasing on the PC is an idiot in my book.

Granted NVidia has forced their way around it, this still doesn't excuse the fact that this guy was in charge of the development team of one of the most anticipated next gen engines that would get it green lighted without supporting AA on PCs. Not cool :thumbdwn:

|MaguS|
08-29-07, 09:06 PM
I'm sorry but Mark Rein is an idiot. Anyone that would spearhead a next generation engine that doesn't allow Anti Aliasing on the PC is an idiot in my book.


Goodthing you mean **** to the industry. One less person buying the game wont affect their sales... hell this entire forum could go on strike and they wouldn't notice it. And how do you know that they didn't want AA but to add other features in the engine they had to shelve it currently so they can have the most capable engine available on the market. Untill you show us that you can even make a simple OpenGL window you are the idiot here.

You all think that it all comes so easily, but they have choices to be made during development and guess what... AA is not that important to them.

MowTin
08-29-07, 09:29 PM
DX10 was such a huge letdown. It's just never delivered the amazing graphics I (and most people) imagined that it would.

To get my PC ready for "DX10 games" I paid...

$450 for a 8800 GTS
$200 for an AMD x2 4200
$200 for 2GB new memory
$100 for a new mobo

Total $950

But guess what? It's still not enough. That AMD x2 sucks but I can't upgrade it because it's socket 939. I need to buy DDR2 memory and I need a GTX or 9800GTX.

It would cost more but I (lee63) vista.

So, I dumped over a grand into upgrading not to mention the vast amount of technical challenges (display driver stopped working) I had to overcome to play games.

My wife bought me a 360 Elite as a gift. The Dirt demo runs great on 360. My upgrades cost 2x as much and Dirt just doesn't run well on it because of my crappy AMD.

I still prefer PC games but I can't deny that consoles are much cheaper simpler alternative of almost equal quality.

spaceigg
08-29-07, 09:32 PM
oh no another pc vs console thread.... WTF

i think the best thing to do here is to realize that consoles and pcs have their pros and cons, this has been beaten to death...

how can we say pc gaming is dead?? there are so many fantastic games coming out this fall that I can't handle it!!!!!!!! OMFG!!

and It's nice to see consoles having the kind of quality they have today... nothing wrong there if you're into consoles...

lets stop fapping for sec..

3DBrad
08-29-07, 09:37 PM
Please stop speaking out your behind about Mark Rein.

He never said the 360 trounces PCs, that's just a forum rumor. Go read what he says yourself.

conroejoe
08-29-07, 10:39 PM
Goodthing you mean **** to the industry. One less person buying the game wont affect their sales... hell this entire forum could go on strike and they wouldn't notice it. And how do you know that they didn't want AA but to add other features in the engine they had to shelve it currently so they can have the most capable engine available on the market. Untill you show us that you can even make a simple OpenGL window you are the idiot here.

You all think that it all comes so easily, but they have choices to be made during development and guess what... AA is not that important to them.


Well I, as do most gamers, want AA over HDR. So one less PC sale, doesn't sound like they as they will code how they want to the console and port over **** for the PC from here on out anyways. Maybe they could put up a poll and asking the customers - do you want pretty lights or AA?


"Untill you show us that you can even make a simple OpenGL window you are the idiot here. "

Why dont you show me an OpenGL window? Otherwise you're just an idiot as well.

jAkUp
08-29-07, 11:08 PM
Ok.. I have to step in here and say something...

"Mark Rein from Epic Games, who was in charge of the development team on Unreal Engine 3..."


I'm sorry but Mark Rein is an idiot. Anyone that would spearhead a next generation engine that doesn't allow Anti Aliasing on the PC is an idiot in my book.

Granted NVidia has forced their way around it, this still doesn't excuse the fact that this guy was in charge of the development team of one of the most anticipated next gen engines that would get it green lighted without supporting AA on PCs. Not cool :thumbdwn:

It supports AA, but in DX10 mode. This was made apparent by Tim Sweeney.

delas52
08-29-07, 11:12 PM
DX10 was such a huge letdown. It's just never delivered the amazing graphics I (and most people) imagined that it would.

Yea, this is a fair conclusion when all of 4 games have a dx10 option (and these are only for a few post processing effects).

DX9 hasn't even completely matured yet and your already calling dx10 a failure?

Give it three more years then say this :thumbdwn:

superklye
08-29-07, 11:31 PM
Yea, this is a fair conclusion when all of 4 games have a dx10 option (and these are only for a few post processing effects).

DX9 hasn't even completely matured yet and your already calling dx10 a failure?

Give it three more years then say this :thumbdwn:
Yeah, for real...DX10 has barely even been out yet. DX9 was much the same when it first launched...

conroejoe
08-29-07, 11:43 PM
It supports AA, but in DX10 mode. This was made apparent by Tim Sweeney.


Right, but it still not working.

Severian126
08-29-07, 11:50 PM
Magus, you took some of the words right out of my mouth. =)

Consoles and PC, though a few people apparently are oblivious to this, are complementary to each other.

I remember when the PS1 first came out and it spurred the PC 3D scene to start churning out advances in 3D technology. The PC has managed to evolve the 3D landscape to the point where big players who emerged from it, ATI/NVIDIA, have managed to get a foothold and develope technology for use in the consoles as well. And now, from what I see, what the PC is in dire need of is some sort of compatability, stability that consoles have. Though a good deal HATES the Vista+LIVE feature, at least there's some sort of groundwork being built in the PC gaming scene to set a standard that is apparently not there quite yet.. It's chaotic, and it's daunting for the average consumer to jump into.

If there is a problem arising in the PC gaming scene, it's due to the barriers that have traditionally barred most gamers away. Costs, incompatibility, some level of technological skill, etc. Until some standards are set, and costs driven down to the point where it's actually feasable to game on a PC vs consoles, financially, I guess we'll always have this debate.

The PC gaming scene by nature is a free-willed beast. It's the one thing that drew me in, but ironically, it's the one thing that's hurting its evolution too compared to consoles. Both formats have a thing to learn about each other, and if acceptance becomes commonplace, I think the future is bright for both.

And yeah, why the hell is people bitching about DX10? Haven't most learned about DX9? I remember the same whining when it first came out. Give it time and a chance, it'll mature. I mean, look at DX9 now....it's technology is a standard and is used in various formats. The thing can happen with DX10.

jAkUp
08-30-07, 12:22 AM
Right, but it still not working.

UT3 will. Epic sells their engines to dev's, it is the dev's job to make sure AA is working properly.

saguy
08-30-07, 05:00 AM
Magus you make a lot of sense. It does amaze me that PC gaming is still in a fairly healthy condition considering it has so much going against it. I know that if I was a games developer I would not be making games exclusively for the PC so it astounds me that we are getting Crysis. We should appreciate that we are getting so called ports like Bioshock, Airborne and COD4 because without consoles I doubt these titles would exist.

SwedX
08-30-07, 05:58 AM
I love how you call Mark Rein a morron yet he is part of one of the most successful development teams aswell as makes more money then your entire family in a single month.

Very few PC games ever get over the 1 million mark and the ones that do are not the ones that are pushing the boundries in graphics or physics but are the ones who grasp the most people. WoW was able to accomplish this because of its flexible engine as does the SIMS. Farcry and Fear sold like crap when compared to good console games (not even AAA ones).

Keep commenting on how he is such a big morron yet you idiolize Carmack whos game and engine are barely used because it has no flexibility.

So please shut the **** up.

Beqouse you dont have a FU clue what you are talking about it..I have said it many times but the little brain you have cant take it in so go and kiss you lovely little toybox and just STFUK.

You know well I am so right thats why you allways jump over me, and you know what, it gives me the satisfaction to LOL at morons like you.

Back to the console forum you little troll its much better than your rambling about how supreme the console world is..you know what soon your little boxes may vanished as the future is the Pc..so go cry me a river jerk!

SwedX
08-30-07, 06:06 AM
Ok.. I have to step in here and say something...

"Mark Rein from Epic Games, who was in charge of the development team on Unreal Engine 3..."


I'm sorry but Mark Rein is an idiot. Anyone that would spearhead a next generation engine that doesn't allow Anti Aliasing on the PC is an idiot in my book.

Granted NVidia has forced their way around it, this still doesn't excuse the fact that this guy was in charge of the development team of one of the most anticipated next gen engines that would get it green lighted without supporting AA on PCs. Not cool :thumbdwn:

Well said the man is an Idiot any Pc gamer knows that so well spoken my friend and never I say never listen to the douchbag magus as all he does all day is licking his little consoles/crapboxes and bashes the Pc.

A ****ie for him as he takes the first price of being the biggest IDIOT on this forum!

JohnDio
08-30-07, 07:46 AM
Regarding the FSAA issue...........both MOH:Airborne and Bioshock support the FSAA under Dx9 ;)

ASUSEN7900GTX
08-30-07, 08:11 AM
were would PC gaming be withot ATARI Nintendo Sega? they gave us TV_Games/COnsoles and thet is where PC gaming got itīs birth from there wasnīt much PC games before 486DX4 and such computers and before that there were alot of consoles that had been out long before the forts PC game came.

such as NES Sega master system sega mega drive super Nintendo and so forth

sure i could be wrong about where PC games came from but they sure as hell didnīt exist in the meaning of games like sam and max X-wing Dark FOrces.

sure you amiga and ATAriīs computer in the 80īs so perhps PC gaming as it is was already on that timeline but if we look at "real PC" gaming it was rather late against consoles so consoles kind of gave us PC gaming

i have a PS2 Xbox360 a good PC/gaming rig but i donīt bitch about consoles destroying PC gaming iīm happy as it is

:)

madmossy
08-30-07, 09:37 AM
The biggest issue with PC Gaming currently is cost, graphics cards specially the mid range/high end which are more often than not needed to make games truely playable are just too expensive for average joe.

That and the fact that there are no really "standard" system type for PC means publishers have to make a choice when producing games, make it for the common demonominator and end up with a game that everyone can play but looks like crap (some scale very well though) or make a game that looks amazing but doesnt scale well at all and requires high end gear.

It's a choice that more often than note caters for the lowest end system in use. Very few companies will try push PC hardware as its a very risky business move. Which is why I think current next gen consoles are actually good for the PC market, as more and more games get "ported" over, good or bad. PC hardware will get the much needed bump it needs to keep up with the console games graphically.

With games comming out like CoD4, MoH:A, Crysis, Assassins Creed etc all requiring pretty decent systems to play smoothly, people with only a PC that requires a graphics card may just update it (decent card can be had for little over Ģ50), those than cant afford a complete PC upgrade might just get the console version instead.