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View Full Version : Bioshock - Bug in AA???


ajm786
09-03-07, 02:06 AM
This is not a thread about Bioshock not being able to do AA; I already found out how to do that. However, this IS a report on a possible bug with the game or nVidia drivers, I don't know which one to point it to.

To reproduce this, make sure AA is enabled. Stand in front of something that you can make sure you can tell AA is enabled (you can tell when it is and isn't very easily).

Now here's where you can find the bug. Go into anything like a vending machine, Gatherer's Garden, or anything that has a menu that you can hack or buy anything from, then exit out from it. Look at the world around, and you will see that it's like AA is RESET (not working).

I did this a few times, and I've confirmed that going into any of those will cause your AA to get disabled. I stood in front of a vending machine in Fontaine's Fishery, where on my left was a grid, so I could easily turn around and see if AA was disabled.

Can anyone else reproduce this? Playing with non-AA has been driving me nuts!!! BTW, I'm running 163.44 drivers (latest ones).

damicatz
09-03-07, 02:53 AM
Bioshock uses deferred lighting which is incompatible with AA at this time under DX9 (similar to how HDR was with older cards). So forcing AA is going to cause glitches as a result.

DX10 is another story and that appears to be a bug in the drivers/Bioshock.

conroejoe
09-03-07, 09:21 AM
Yea, the method of forcing AA will cause these types of artifacts and anomolies.

Dragunov
09-03-07, 11:28 AM
Unreal Engine 3 is not ready yet in DX10 for those AA, there is already an article floating around on this forum about it.

They can add it in patch, I guess

Mike89
09-03-07, 02:02 PM
There have been so many threads on this with people swearing FSAA is working with this game in DX9, showing all kinds of screenshots to supposedly prove it. I have played this game all the way through about 5 times now, am using the latest Beta 163.44 drivers and I can say (on my system at least) that FSAA IS NOT WORKING. I can force FSAA in the control panel or take it off and I see no difference regarding full FSAA. Even Tim Sweeney says multi sample FSAA doesn't work in DX9 for the Unreal 3 engine but still people swear otherwise with very heated discussions over who is right. I guess they are calling the lead programmer of the Unreal 3 engine a liar. I've checked every screenshot I've seen, went back to it in my game and see those screenshots don't represent what is actually happening. It may appear at times it's working and then you can move the mouse a little to view at a different angle which will expose the jaggies that those screenshots didn't show or the screenshots themselves didn't have jaggies to begin with (with or without having FSAA on in the control panel). If I knew how to take screenshots in this game I could come up with countless examples that show FSAA is not working. I think because of the way this game is rendered, jaggies are not as apparent as they are in some other games and this gives the illusion that FSAA is working sometimes. If you look close though, you can see that it isn't.

I don't know what the makers of the Unreal 3 engine were thinking to come up with a new engine that is not compatible with FSAA in DX9 (which IMO is the most important feature in games period). I couldn't picture Carmack coming up with an engine like this. I just don't get the reasoning and don't care for the engine because of it. Give me an engine that addresses full FSAA and that's the one I want.

Xion X2
09-03-07, 02:34 PM
I don't know what the makers of the Unreal 3 engine were thinking to come up with a new engine that is not compatible with FSAA in DX9. I just don't get the reasoning and don't care for the engine because of it. Give me an engine that addresses full FSAA and that's the one I want.


Amen! http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif

walterman
09-03-07, 04:00 PM
Prolly, the driver isn't enabling AA for all the Render Targets.

Also, the game could be using some textures as RTs, for some special effects like blooming, and a texture can't have AA.

From my experience, i think that AA should be enabled from the game engine, cause only the game developers know how the scene is rendered.

damicatz
09-03-07, 04:20 PM
Again, the game uses deferred lighting which is NOT compatible with AA in DX9. The tradeoff for AA support in DX9 would be vastly reduced lighting quality. It's an issue with the DX9 API and DX9 Cards and not the engine itself.

There have been so many threads on this with people swearing FSAA is working with this game in DX9, showing all kinds of screenshots to supposedly prove it. I have played this game all the way through about 5 times now, am using the latest Beta 163.44 drivers and I can say (on my system at least) that FSAA IS NOT WORKING. I can force FSAA in the control panel or take it off and there is no difference regarding full FSAA. Even Tim Sweeney says multi sample FSAA doesn't work in DX9 for the Unreal 3 engine but still people swear otherwise with very heated discussions over who is right. I guess they are calling the lead programmer of the Unreal 3 engine a liar. I've checked every screenshot I've seen, went back to it in my game and see those screenshots don't represent what is actually happening. It may appear at times it's working and then you can move the mouse a little to view at a different angle which will expose the jaggies that those screenshots didn't show or the screenshots themselves didn't have jaggies to begin with. If I knew how to take screenshots in this game I could come up with countless examples that show FSAA is not working. I think because of the way this game is rendered, jaggies are not as apparent as they are in some other games and this gives the illusion that FSAA is working sometimes. If you look close though, you can see that it isn't.

I don't know what the makers of the Unreal 3 engine were thinking to come up with a new engine that is not compatible with FSAA in DX9 (which IMO is the most important feature in games period). I couldn't picture Carmack coming up with an engine like this. I just don't get the reasoning and don't care for the engine because of it. Give me an engine that addresses full FSAA and that's the one I want.

Mike89
09-03-07, 04:47 PM
From my experience, i think that AA should be enabled from the game engine, cause only the game developers know how the scene is rendered.

In this case it's not there because the U3 game engine doesn't support it (in DX9 and so far hasn't been exposed even in DX10). The driver can't do what the engine can't or if it tries to simulate something, it's most likely going to cause some side effects someplace else.

Mike89
09-03-07, 05:04 PM
It's an issue with the DX9 API and DX9 Cards and not the engine itself.

That's semantics isn't it? I mean if the engine doesn't support FSAA in DX9, then it doesn't. If you play DX9 games using the U3 engine, the result is the same.

walterman
09-03-07, 05:53 PM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/262491/6800-Leagues-Deferred-Shading

Page 23 shows the problems with deferred shading & AA. Possible solutions on page 31.

Basically, you render the scene into several textures: position, normals, difusse, ... then you use blending for each light in the scene, with the light properties. And a final pass for the color.

I think it's a very interesting technique, but, again, a guy who spends 600E in a gfx card, wants to play with AA.

pnarciso
09-03-07, 06:07 PM
Unreal 3 engine don't officially support AA.
Bioshock with 4xAA takes a huge performance hit with a 8800GTX, so it's not worth it. The game still runs beautiful and you don't even notice the jaggies at 1680x1050.

damicatz
09-03-07, 06:11 PM
The entire point of deferred shading is to allow photorealistic lighting while reducing the strain on the GPU. The AA (and fake AA) methods listed would negate that advantage and would bring even an 8800 series GPU to it's knees.

And there really isn't a point in implementing MSAA workarounds in DX9 mode because there isn't a DX9 card that could handle it at a playable framerate.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/262491/6800-Leagues-Deferred-Shading

Page 23 shows the problems with deferred shading & AA. Possible solutions on page 31.

Basically, you render the scene into several textures: position, normals, difusse, ... then you use blending for each light in the scene, with the light properties. And a final pass for the color.

I think it's a very interesting technique, but, again, a guy who spends 600E in a gfx card, wants to play with AA.

Zenoth
09-03-07, 09:15 PM
I do not have such a bug with AA with my Bioshock. I tried to hack two machines in my current game, AA is enabled at 4xMSAA, but when I exit the machines AA is still applied properly. I'm using 163.44's on XP 32-Bit.

irondk
09-03-07, 09:42 PM
Again, the game uses deferred lighting which is NOT compatible with AA in DX9.

Let's end this idiocy once and for all. People read too much into developer quotes about completely different game. Currently, Nvidia proves AA workaround in DX9, similar to what they've done in R6Vegas, and it works just fine.

AA

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8458/bioshockaayu7.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bioshockaayu7.jpg)


No AA

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/353/bioshocknoaale0.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bioshocknoaale0.jpg)

If you dont see a difference, you dont need AA in the first place :D

For those that having trouble enabling it under DX9, download nHancer and make sure (00000045: Rainbow Six Vegas) AA compatibility fix is enabled under Bioshock profile.

Luchou
09-03-07, 10:17 PM
I also can enable AA, but it takes a big performance hit, not necessary IMO, game looks incredible with or without it...

Mike89
09-03-07, 11:13 PM
This is my comment about those screenshots. I just went into the game, right to where those screenshots were taken. With or without forcing the control panel to FSAA I can get similar results just by positioning the mouse to view at different angles. If I move the mouse slightly, the jaggies are exposed. I will post two screenshots to show this. These shots are both without FSAA on. On the first one look straight to the vertical bars at the back of the picture. The jaggies are there. Now look at the second shot moving the mouse a bit and the jaggies disappear. I can reproduce this with or without having FSAA on. The result is the same. I'll say what I said in my other post. FSAA can look like it's on but moving the mouse will show it isn't. I can reproduce every screenshot I've ever seen for this game to either show jaggies or not but just moving the mouse. This would not be the case if true FSAA was working.




http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4686/clipboard02ux3.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard02ux3.jpg)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/3200/clipboard01xw7.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard01xw7.jpg)

Here is another example in the same area. Again, both are without FSAA on. First one shows jaggies, second one by just moving a bit show them greatly reduced. With or without FSAA on, the results are identical.


http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/144/clipboard04hd9.th.jpg (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard04hd9.jpg)


http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/6586/clipboard03bs3.th.jpg (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard03bs3.jpg)

irondk
09-04-07, 12:14 AM
All your shots showing visible aliasing. AA is WORKING in DX9. PERIOD. It has nothing to do with moving the mouse (note that my shots are from the exact same frame unlike yours, so your "theory" is complete bull). The problem you are having is specific to your system.

Download nHancer, make sure R6V AA compatiblity fix is on. 163.44 enable this, but sometimes profiles dont get updated.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1444/aacompjv7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mike89
09-04-07, 01:12 AM
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1630/clipboard05sc4.th.jpg (http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard05sc4.jpg)



I didn't care much for "your theory is bull" comment but it did get me to go back and un-install the 163.44 drivers with Driver Cleaner and re-installed (I don't want it to be said I'm closed minded). Went back into Bioshock and you are right. The screenshot above shows it with 4X FSAA (overriding the game in control panel and not using Nhancer). Dunno what the hell happened with my previous driver install. There are a lot of others who are also saying it's not working for them. Maybe they also got a bad driver install.

BTW, I do notice now a performance hit with FSAA on where before I didn't. I do still think this is some sort of driver hack that is not inherent in the Unreal 3 engine.

irondk
09-04-07, 01:17 AM
163.44 drivers with Driver Cleaner and re-installed. Went back into Bioshock and you are right.

Sometimes, nvapps.xml does not get updated during install. All profiles are there, so that makes all the difference.

But you got it fixed, so enjoy :captnkill:

Jonelo
09-04-07, 04:42 AM
Unreal 3 engine not is default a deferred rendering engine, except in Gears of War . The problem in R6 las Vegas , Mohaa airborne and Bioshock is the "deferred "shadow system.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1348132&postcount=69

HiCZoK4
09-13-07, 05:54 PM
To make this straight.
dx10- no aa yet any possible way in bioshock
dx9 - no problem pulling off aa but it turns of after i take screenshot with fraps.

and one more thing TOO ALL OF YOU .
Most of people on vista thinks that if they turn of dx10 option in bioshock then game switch to dx9...NOOO it is still dx10.

Now to have DX9 in bioshock under vista you need to add a -dx9mode to shortcut console or run game in xp. then enjoy aa on any system :D

and in dx9vsdx10. the only difference is water ripples looks better in dx10.

sammy sung
09-13-07, 06:08 PM
I couldn't picture Carmack coming up with an engine like this.

Hmm i can,i can fully picture him coming up with something similar,engines that wont minimize,engines that crashes to desktop with "nice" gammalocks,engines that require extra script strings so you can run the game on the same machine that runs a dedicated server.(will not work without a fs savepath string)engines that prevent more than 60 fps,wich they changed to 90 fps for the duel mode in the latest quake 4 patch.I agree that its stupid though but ive had far less issues with unreal engine games than i had with the quakeseries .

Reputator
09-13-07, 06:46 PM
This is a moot argument. The engine doesn't HAVE to use differed rendering. Furthermore, AA is working, you have to both blind and ignorant to not see it. Even if you can't get it working yourself, you have to work pretty hard to purposefully ignore EVERY SINGLE SCREENSHOT proving the existence of AA, and reputable websites (like this one (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTM4NywxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==)) confirming it as well.

But AA in Bioshock is a crapshoot. At least with 2xAA, as I haven't tested 4xAA much (it's completely unplayable for me). You get some areas of the SAME screenshot that show AA working, and AA not working. Case in point:

http://www.otakunetwork.org/reputator/bioshock_AA2.PNG
This is a screenshot from the beginning of the game, uncompressed. Photobucket doesn't allow pics over 1MB, so I have this on my private server with limited bandwidth. Download will be slow.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Cybercat/Screenshots/bioshock_AA_zoom1.png
Here you have a zoomed in portion of that screenshot. This is with 2xAA enabled. Notice there's practically no AA at all.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Cybercat/Screenshots/bioshock_AA_zoom2.png
Same screenshot, different part of it zoomed in. AA is clearly working. This is blown up the same way as the first, with no anti-aliasing applied.

As you can see, it can appear sometimes that AA isn't working, but if you look at other areas, it clearly is.