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AdamK47
09-18-07, 09:51 AM
It seems that the nVidia driver development team does not care to support older games with their drivers as they have done in the past. That was one of the reasons to own an nVidia card. You knew things were going to work well. Now I don't even think the bug reports I've been sending to them concerning older games even get taken a look at by them. Probably just dumped right into the recycle bin. Even a single driver issue that seems to affect multiple games doesn't get mentioned in the driver release notes and I know I reported it many times since the introduction of the 162/163 drivers. That bug is the reporting of the available video memory that some games check to determine if a game can run or to determine what texture resolution to use in the game. Silent Storm refuses to start saying the video card is not supported and Vampire Bloodlines texture quality is absolutly horrible. They work fine in 158, but not with the newer drivers. nVidia seems more content on making a newer game run 1 frame per second faster using hacked together driver code than making an older game run at all. Once that game gets older I can guarantee the hacked together code is going to be broken in later driver releases and left to rot like much of the hacked together code currently in their drivers for older games. It's getting worse and worse as time goes on.

AdamK47
09-18-07, 10:22 AM
I just submitted 5 bug reports for the 163.69 drivers. We'll see where that goes.

nekrosoft13
09-18-07, 10:28 AM
its hard to keep support for what? maybe 1000-2000 games? over all these years?

AdamK47
09-18-07, 12:10 PM
No, it's just that you see nVidia trying to implement new code into their drivers to eek out 1 to 2 percent framerate improvements while other games with devoted fan bases get neglected. For example, there's a huge fan base for the Vampire games and Bloodlines still gets support for the community. Silent Storm is a great game and is still available in many retail outlets and the game doesn't even start. Grim Fandango? Just try and enable 3D accelerated mode. There are other games that I don't own that may be less than two years old with similar problems. I don't care how much the marketing departments are pushing the driver team to squeeze out more frames to look better on paper compared to the competition. I just wish they would spend time looking into these reported issues as well.

Slammin
09-18-07, 05:27 PM
Are you force feeding drivers? I see a lot of folks using modded .inf's to get their card to run the latest drivers and then come here to complain that something broke.

Those same people really hate to see a driver released for new hardware while not getting a new driver for their old hardware.

Not saying you do either, but, do you?

particleman
09-18-07, 07:49 PM
Yeah I feel your pain... there are a lot of old games that I can no longer play with my 8800. In an ideal world, the driver would have a lot more options to disable certain optimizations, enable workarounds for certain games etc... I think part of the problem is that it would make the driver too complicated for your average user.

Who knows maybe someday we'll see a DX7/8 wrapper that specializes in support for older games like there are glide wrappers now.

AdamK47
09-18-07, 10:38 PM
Are you force feeding drivers? I see a lot of folks using modded .inf's to get their card to run the latest drivers and then come here to complain that something broke.

Those same people really hate to see a driver released for new hardware while not getting a new driver for their old hardware.

Not saying you do either, but, do you?

I don't know what you mean by feeding drivers. This is my rig...
http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.aspx?rigid=34478

and I have the following games installed...
http://www.gamespot.com/users/AdamK47/images

Princess_Frosty
09-19-07, 06:59 AM
If the only benefit of newer drivers is 1-2 more frames per second (as you claim) then don't download them, and stick with older revisions which work OK with your games.

Most bugs do get fixed eventually, some are just higher priority than others, and rightly so.

SH0DAN
09-19-07, 03:03 PM
Can anyone here run Bloodlines ? I cant not with the last few releases.It seems Nvidia has broken the game again :(

nekrosoft13
09-19-07, 03:25 PM
Vampire Bloodlines? works fine here.

nightmare beta
09-19-07, 03:30 PM
It seems that the nVidia driver development team does not care to support older games with their drivers as they have done in the past. That was one of the reasons to own an nVidia card. You knew things were going to work well. Now I don't even think the bug reports I've been sending to them concerning older games even get taken a look at by them. Probably just dumped right into the recycle bin. Even a single driver issue that seems to affect multiple games doesn't get mentioned in the driver release notes and I know I reported it many times since the introduction of the 162/163 drivers. That bug is the reporting of the available video memory that some games check to determine if a game can run or to determine what texture resolution to use in the game. Silent Storm refuses to start saying the video card is not supported and Vampire Bloodlines texture quality is absolutly horrible. They work fine in 158, but not with the newer drivers. nVidia seems more content on making a newer game run 1 frame per second faster using hacked together driver code than making an older game run at all. Once that game gets older I can guarantee the hacked together code is going to be broken in later driver releases and left to rot like much of the hacked together code currently in their drivers for older games. It's getting worse and worse as time goes on.

I agree 100% that the performance increases are unneccessary and I don't know why everyone thinks 1 or 2 fps makes a difference either.

Anyway, it's a coincidence that I read this today, as yesterday, I emailed nvidia for the 2nd time (1st was a few months ago) about dx5+6 compatibility and that 16 bit color only games should be rendered internally @ 32 bit, and it sounded like they were interested in doing that.

I think it's very odd how the tables have turned with drivers (nvidia vs. ati.) I always thought of nvidia as the compatibility choice too, but right now their compatibility isn't too good. Hopefully they're going to take our suggestions. DX5-7 wrappers aren't the right answer.

I can't switch to ati, for two reasons, one being that their af isn't as good (5 bit subpixel trilinear precision and angle variant samples), and the other, is that all of the hd 2k series' drivers don't center with correct aspect ratio.

It's like you can't win either way.

I really don't see how anyone can overlook these issues. To me, if a new highend card (or drivers actually) can't run all games looking better than previous hardware, then that high end card isn't all that great, no matter how fast it is.

I wish hardware sites would give nvidia's and ati's products scores quite a bit less than 9 or 10 if they don't deserve 9s or 10s.

Nvidia and ati need to trim transistors and driver code that allow low quality, if they're on a tight budget. I see no reason for them to have less than quality mode (I would never use less than HQ) for af, and no reason to not trim the dxt format's compression in half.

Slammin
09-19-07, 03:33 PM
My point exactly.

So many machines out there in whatever state, that when something doesn't work right, the first thing they do is suspect anything but what the problem really is.

Now granted, it shouldn't be that easy to get things so screwed up that stuff breaks, but it's been that way since day one with computers. UAC a better idea?

I read what I see here as reference, not as fact. I do like that folks participate and offer help and suggestions, but I also make no assumptions that because one person says something is broken, that it won't work for me either.

Slammin
09-19-07, 04:05 PM
I agree 100% that the performance increases are unneccessary and I don't know why everyone thinks 1 or 2 fps makes a difference either.

Anyway, it's a coincidence that I read this today, as yesterday, I emailed nvidia for the 2nd time (1st was a few months ago) about dx5+6 compatibility and that 16 bit color only games should be rendered internally @ 32 bit, and it sounded like they were interested in doing that.

I think it's very odd how the tables have turned with drivers (nvidia vs. ati.) I always thought of nvidia as the compatibility choice too, but right now their compatibility isn't too good. Hopefully they're going to take our suggestions. DX5-7 wrappers aren't the right answer.

I can't switch to ati, for two reasons, one being that their af isn't as good (5 bit subpixel trilinear precision and angle variant samples), and the other, is that all of the hd 2k series' drivers don't center with correct aspect ratio.

It's like you can't win either way.

I really don't see how anyone can overlook these issues. To me, if a new highend card (or drivers actually) can't run all games looking better than previous hardware, then that high end card isn't all that great, no matter how fast it is.

I wish hardware sites would give nvidia's and ati's products scores quite a bit less than 9 or 10 if they don't deserve 9s or 10s.

Nvidia and ati need to trim transistors and driver code that allow low quality, if they're on a tight budget. I see no reason for them to have less than quality mode (I would never use less than HQ) for af, and no reason to not trim the dxt format's compression in half.


Think of how some HD televisons handle standard def tv better than others.

Why complain when progress moves forward?

Don't buy an HD TV if all you are gonna watch is SD.

|MaguS|
09-19-07, 04:06 PM
Vampire Bloodlines? works fine here.

Same here...

nightmare beta
09-19-07, 05:00 PM
Think of how some HD televisons handle standard def tv better than others.

Why complain when progress moves forward?

Don't buy an HD TV if all you are gonna watch is SD.

the problem is is that eventually all of the old hardware will be gone.

Trust me, if i could have a computer with a voodoo 5 for the rest of my life and have it working perfectly forever, I'd be the happiest person alive. The problem is, is that the old hardware is hard to find, and there's really no reason for old games to not be fully supported and better than ever, when it's easily possible.

I don't code drivers, but think of it this way. All you have to do is add a few strings of driver code and keep it in all future drivers and that would be that. all you have to do is add dx 5 and 6 compatibility and render internally at 32 bit when the driver calls for 16 bit output.

old games are still good games just like new games are.

Slammin
09-19-07, 05:19 PM
the problem is is that eventually all of the old hardware will be gone.

Trust me, if i could have a computer with a voodoo 5 for the rest of my life and have it working perfectly forever, I'd be the happiest person alive. The problem is, is that the old hardware is hard to find, and there's really no reason for old games to not be fully supported and better than ever, when it's easily possible.

I don't code drivers, but think of it this way. All you have to do is add a few strings of driver code and keep it in all future drivers and that would be that. all you have to do is add dx 5 and 6 compatibility and render internally at 32 bit when the driver calls for 16 bit output.

old games are still good games just like new games are.


I've got some old Voodoo cards here I could sell you. Could possibly toss in a Diamond Viper card to boot too, but sheese, taking them to the post office wouldn't be worth my time. And how well do you think they'd scale from Longbow II to Bioshock?

Very old games need very old hardware for the most part. You mentioning Voodoo just sounds like you are intentionally going to the extremes, but yes, I too understand what you are saying about how new stuff seems to abandon old stuff, but ya know, if my shoes grew with my feet, I'd be pretty happy about that.

NikeeeeeGrowwwwWithhhhhMeeeeee!

So kewl!

AdamK47
09-19-07, 05:34 PM
Same here...

With high resolution textures? With the 162/163 drivers the game defaults to low res textures. You'll notice this with the Vampire logo on the main menu being blocky and blurry and the scrolling Bloodlines banner in the back being beyond blurry. With the 158 drivers the textures are clean and crisp.

SH0DAN
09-19-07, 05:55 PM
Maybe a reinstall is on order then,oh and thanks for the heads up both of you.

Monolyth
09-19-07, 06:05 PM
nVidia recently added advanced code-evaporation to their drivers so that old games will stop working with newer drivers/cards after a certain period of time.

I call this the "technological progress effect" or TPE. I believe you can disable it in newer drivers in the control panel...oh wait...oops no you can't nVidia has grayed out the option, the tool-tip says...
"Guess what we don't support this game on this hardware, dig out your old crusty HP Pavilion with Celeron 2.2Ghz & 512MB's of RAM and Windows 98 and then we'll talk about support."

Hmmm...May have to submit a bug report on that one...

|MaguS|
09-19-07, 06:06 PM
With high resolution textures? With the 162/163 drivers the game defaults to low res textures. You'll notice this with the Vampire logo on the main menu being blocky and blurry and the scrolling Bloodlines banner in the back being beyond blurry. With the 158 drivers the textures are clean and crisp.

So you modified the game and your blaming nvidia? yeah... nice try.

I can play the game just fine with the games unofficial patch and Res Hack.

Tabs
09-19-07, 06:48 PM
How about the long standing AA bug in Flight Simulator (2004 and X) where the bottom half of the screen becomes an old static image from the framebuffer whenever a ****pit tooltip is brought up?

I've reported it to them at least 3 or 4 times and it never gets fixed.

AdamK47
09-19-07, 07:24 PM
So you modified the game and your blaming nvidia? yeah... nice try.

I can play the game just fine with the games unofficial patch and Res Hack.

I don't understand how you got that from my post. This is an install of Bloodlines with the 1.2 patch applied. Nothing else changed. The game defaults to the low resolution texture because it tries to determine how much on board memory is available on the video card. The game can't because something was changed in the drivers. Instead of the normal high res textures I get low res texturs. What is so hard to understand there?

|MaguS|
09-19-07, 07:50 PM
I don't understand how you got that from my post. This is an install of Bloodlines with the 1.2 patch applied. Nothing else changed. The game defaults to the low resolution texture because it tries to determine how much on board memory is available on the video card. The game can't because something was changed in the drivers. Instead of the normal high res textures I get low res texturs. What is so hard to understand there?

Oh thought you ment that your using a texture mod when you said that you were using the High Res textures. From what I have seen the game has the same textures it always had...

EDIT:
Uploaded some shots, Does the main menu look like that for you? It's suppose to, atleast it has always looked like that for me even on my 7800GTX's back in the day. I also have another shot of ingame and thats the normal high res textures... it doesn't get better then that.

AdamK47
09-19-07, 08:13 PM
Oh thought you ment that your using a texture mod when you said that you were using the High Res textures. From what I have seen the game has the same textures it always had...

EDIT:
Uploaded some shots, Does the main menu look like that for you? It's suppose to, atleast it has always looked like that for me even on my 7800GTX's back in the day. I also have another shot of ingame and thats the normal high res textures... it doesn't get better then that.

This is what it looks like for me. What OS is yours on? If I go back to the 158.45 drivers the textures look just like in your screenshot. With 163.69 I get what you see in my screenshot. Uninstalling and reinstalling the game did nothing. Going back to the older drivers was the only way to fix it for me.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa168/PointyB/bloodlines.png

|MaguS|
09-19-07, 08:19 PM
Vista 32 with the newest drivers (Crysis/Bioshock Drivers). I play the game with 16xAA/16xAF at 1920x1200.