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LordJuanlo
09-21-07, 06:30 AM
Interesting read at Pc Perspective (http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=455), Intel says PCs will be powerful enough in two years to handle raytraced games.

http://www.pcper.com/images/reviews/455/ray_poster1.jpg

nekrosoft13
09-21-07, 06:44 AM
yap, a 16core CPU gets you 15fps ;)

six_storm
09-21-07, 06:49 AM
WTH is raytracing? In english, not wiki.

nekrosoft13
09-21-07, 06:58 AM
WTH is raytracing? In english, not wiki.

in the most simple definition. real life lighting/shadows etc..

its like rendering game in maya/3dmax/softimage frame by frame.

walterman
09-21-07, 07:23 AM
But maybe with 80 cores at 4GHz:

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=363

You can get a decent framerate :)

agentkay
09-21-07, 07:36 AM
I remember that Crysis was suppose to have a few limited raytracing effects. For instance when you placed a Coke can on table in a room, and the sun was shining through the Window, the light would reflect off the can and cause a red light reflection on the wall/part of the table. I remember it was one of the Crytek guys that mentioned it in an interview a few months ago, but I donīt know if itīs still in the game or just an Engine feature.

CaptNKILL
09-21-07, 07:39 AM
I remember that Crysis was suppose to have a few limited raytracing effects. For instance when you placed a Coke can on table in a room, and the sun was shining through the Window, the light would reflect off the can and cause a red light reflection on the wall/part of the table. I remember it was one of the Crytek guys that mentioned it in an interview a few months ago, but I donīt know if itīs still in the game or just an Engine feature.
Yeah whatever happened to that amazing tech demo video they had of the Cryengine 2? Were any of those features actually used in the game, or was that just a bunch of marketing crap to get people to license the engine?

agentkay
09-21-07, 07:49 AM
Yeah whatever happened to that amazing tech demo video they had of the Cryengine 2? Were any of those features actually used in the game, or was that just a bunch of marketing crap to get people to license the engine?

Actually I have seen most of the effects in the BETA. The obvious, motion blur, DoF, subsurface scattering on the leafs, volumetric clouds but unfortuntely they donīt seem to move over the sky/mountains in the beta. The bigger leafs move "around" the character, day/night cycle and advanced physics are limited to DX10 in MP, but Iīm pretty sure that it will in SP and DX9.

CaptNKILL
09-21-07, 08:06 AM
Do you think they have the interior lighting that "reflects" off of surfaces? Its hard to tell in the beta, but in the tech demo video there was a scene that showed a light moving down a stair way and the indirect lighting was reflecting and lighting up different surfaces in the room. As far as I know, this would be the first game to do that in real time, and its a HUGE step in the right direction.

Greg
09-21-07, 08:27 AM
'The future is ray tracing' is a misguided concept. Look at Hollywood special effects to see how non-realtime quality and speed is achieved. Then look at current games and hardware to see how realt time graphics are currently achieved.

Points of interest:
1) Ray tracing only produces part of the Global Illumination equation. Current movie CG use Ray Tracing + Photon mapping or Radiosity for more complete lighting. The bottom line is that RT by itself produces great specular light and hard shadows, but poor or missing diffuse indirect light and caustics.
2) Ray tracing, photon mapping and radiosity are all accelerated by.... rasterization techniques eg. photon gathering texture maps, shadow map textures, radiosity hemicube renders.
3) Ray tracing appears to scale eg. 1 CPU per pixel, BUT what is the slowest part of ray tracing? point to point visibility tests. PtP vis tests require branching and random memory access via spatial data structures, the very thing that is slowest on modern CPUs.
4) Rasterization hardware by its nature provides a more certain execution path, while Ray Tracing is highly variable (eg. one portion of a RT scene can take a much longer, and unpredictably longer time. The same is less true for Rasterization.) The end result is that Raster hardware scales faster (and cheaper) compared to RT, though I admit specialized hardware is being actively researched.
5) Rasterization provides Ray Tracing results already, with fragment shaders. Well ray tracing without the tracing part ;) It's those shadows we have problems with.

(For background, I program real time and non-realtime graphics for 3D games and visualization software.)

8800reject#2
09-21-07, 08:30 AM
~2 Years? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would be surprised if it happened in 6 years. I was going to say never but stranger things have happened.

3D Acceleration has matured so much we would be taking 2 steps back instead of forward. As it is now we aren't using hardware to its full potential. In 2 years with proper multi-core support and next-gen GPU tech we will most likely have photo-realistic graphics in 3D.

Don't know about anyone else but I don't want to go back to playing games at 640x480. ;)

EDIT: Pay no attention to my post count, I have been in the industry for 10 years now. My usual stomping ground is Beyond3D.

RIK
09-21-07, 08:36 AM
Do you think they have the interior lighting that "reflects" off of surfaces? Its hard to tell in the beta, but in the tech demo video there was a scene that showed a light moving down a stair way and the indirect lighting was reflecting and lighting up different surfaces in the room. As far as I know, this would be the first game to do that in real time, and its a HUGE step in the right direction.
Crytek uses a technique called Dynamic ambient occlusion and is already in the beta ;)
Crysis also supports another similar technique for indoor = real-time ambient maps.
Both techniques has real-time indirect lighting :)
You will never notice this technique when you can't disable it.
http://crysis-online.com/images/news/cryengine2-pdf/ambient-maps.jpg


btt: ray-tracing in games would be freaking amazing

JaBs
09-21-07, 09:05 AM
Do you think they have the interior lighting that "reflects" off of surfaces? Its hard to tell in the beta, but in the tech demo video there was a scene that showed a light moving down a stair way and the indirect lighting was reflecting and lighting up different surfaces in the room. As far as I know, this would be the first game to do that in real time, and its a HUGE step in the right direction.

Sounds like global illumination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_illumination).

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. has something like that, tucked away in a setting within the user.ltx (a variable named r2_gi), but it is disabled by default. Probably because it absolutely massacres performance :D

agentkay
09-21-07, 09:16 AM
Do you think they have the interior lighting that "reflects" off of surfaces? Its hard to tell in the beta, but in the tech demo video there was a scene that showed a light moving down a stair way and the indirect lighting was reflecting and lighting up different surfaces in the room. As far as I know, this would be the first game to do that in real time, and its a HUGE step in the right direction.

I remember that scene you have mentioned but the only "moving" light is the one that rotates in the sub and itīs hard to tell if it reflects off the surfaces but it does cast shadows from all object in its range, incl. the player. Itīs not easy to see though. The laser pointer and flashlight attachment on the submachine gun unfortuntely donīt reflect their light but the flashlight does cause shadows off objects similar like Stalker. There are also indirect shadows outside, when you are in an area that has a world shadow, animals for instance seem to cast a shadowish effect on the ground, maybe from the reflected light sources?

Iīm actually surprised how many effects made it to DX9 and wonder what else will be DX10 only (except day/night cycle and more physics in MP). 3D water/waves maybe, I donīt know.

Try4Ce
09-21-07, 09:38 AM
I read somewhere about a Raytracing GPU...
Was only a early prototype tho, but they modified the Quake III Arena engine to work with Raytracing and it looked absolutely stunning for that time.

That time, Quake III Arena was about 1/2 years old and still looked good. With the Raytracing GPU and modified engine the Teleport-T's got Reflections which were absolutely accurate... Even multible reflections in the reflections itself. It was stunning.
Per Pixel Displacement Mapping, up to 16 realtime softshadows per character and Normalmapping.
Ran absolutely fluent, even on a hardcore stress test with 32 Playermodels in one room on a DM map.
They even implemented a flower field with 800+ flowers modeled to the detail. No studdering.

It was awesome, impressive and ahead of its time, would be even now.
They even showed the code. Reduced the code to about the 1/10th, if not even more of the original code.
Raytracing programming must be really easy compared to the rasterising..

Too bad I don't find the page anymore... You guys would be simply amazed.

Global Illumination would be possible, too.

The GPU ran with 266Mhz ... Seems kinda unreal, right?

LordJuanlo
09-21-07, 10:47 AM
Very strange inded, please keep looking for that page :)

CaptNKILL
09-21-07, 10:52 AM
Took about 3 seconds to find on yahoo. :p

http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~sidapohl/egoshooter/

LordJuanlo
09-21-07, 11:48 AM
I knew that page, but this isn't about a raytraced GPU but a computer cluster. Or is it?

Try4Ce
09-21-07, 01:13 PM
The Page got smaller for some reason.
When I checked it that time, there were specs about the Hardware as well and I cant find any program code informations either.
Dunno why they ripped out stuff, but it was unbelievable cool what they accomplished.
And it was a Raytracing GPU, not a cluster. GPU with a special architecture and 266Mhz, early prototype, estimated around 400 bucks if it would hit the shelves.... The Raytracing GPU just needs to compute the "Rays" which were sent and received from the camera viewport.
It sounds really easy and it seems really easy to program, too.
My Brother and I were astonished and couldn't explain why the gaming hardware industry isn't going Raytracing... It's so much more powerful and accurate, so much easier to program and so much cheaper in production...

breathemetal
09-21-07, 02:16 PM
Hmm looks cool.

AngelGraves13
09-21-07, 02:16 PM
Maybe in 8 to 10 years.

8800reject#2
09-21-07, 05:31 PM
I believe Intel is talking about a software engine. Unless nVidia and AMD are working inhouse on a GPU that accelerates Ray-Tracing as we speak we have a ways to go before anything but a CPU accelerates RT.

Is it just me or do the Quake4 renders look identical to the Quake3 shots? Maybe they hit a brick wall?

Does anyone think Intel will even have a mainstream 16 core CPU in 2 years?

I think someone is spiking their drinking water with LSD or something. :afro2:

CaptNKILL
09-21-07, 05:40 PM
I believe Intel is talking about a software engine. Unless nVidia and AMD are working inhouse on a GPU that accelerates Ray-Tracing as we speak we have a ways to go before anything but a CPU accelerates RT.

Is it just me or do the Quake4 renders look identical to the Quake3 shots? Maybe they hit a brick wall?

Does anyone think Intel will even have a mainstream 16 core CPU in 2 years?

I think someone is spiking their drinking water with LSD or something. :afro2:
Id be very surprised if we had more than 4 cores in the desktop market at all in the next 2 years.

Quads won't be mainstream for years.

XDanger
09-21-07, 06:50 PM
4 core ,8 thread by q4 2008

Intel 22nm my (uneducated) guess 8 core hyperthreading so 16

AFAIK 24 core is the limit they are shooting for

Might it be possible that all our pc use may be through a set top box from tera-scale servers in the not too distant future?
They would be owned by whoever gives you your cable at the time.

I like the way they did the human head demo with all the layers, can I have some of that please instead.

AngelGraves13
09-23-07, 04:34 AM
Games like DOOM 3 and Quake 4 look awful raytraced. We'd need all new textures for the entire game and a way for the metal and other stuff to reflect. I don't see it happening.