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jpeter
04-10-03, 06:16 AM
I think this news aren't good news for consumers.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030410/sfth034_1.html

RobHague
04-10-03, 07:51 AM
Depends on if those consumers are using NVIDIA graphics cards or not ;) j/k

Kruno
04-10-03, 08:12 AM
It's not in EA's interest to abandon the other 62% of the market. ;)

Last I seen, nVidia had only 32% of the market. Intel chipsets were the highest market share. :|
I believe that is far more worrying than anything.

Skuzzy
04-10-03, 08:31 AM
EA just got the last dollar they will ever get from me.

This is not good for the gaming industry. When game companies start siding up with video card makers it hurts the consumer.

I refuse to be coerced into buying a video card to play a game. I may have bought my last NVidia card as well, but I will have to calm down before making that decision.

SurfMonkey
04-10-03, 08:33 AM
Under terms outlined by their agreement, NVIDIA hardware will become the preferred PC graphics platform for EA's worldwide studios to give its developers the best solution for realizing their creative visions. EA development teams will use PCs powered by NVIDIA GPUs to create eye-popping 3D effects while allowing full compatibility across all PC gaming systems featuring NVIDIA hardware.


This would be the only worrying bit, if it meant for certain that EA would be producing nvidia only titles. But it doesn't, all they are saying is that EA will be using nvidia powered cards for dev work, just like ID do.


NVIDIA and EA will also discuss opportunities to implement NVIDIA-specific features and special effects in several upcoming EA titles such as Madden NFL Football 2004 and others for the PC platform.


This is the bit that could cause problems, but I don't see why it should. They say they will discuss opportunities to add nvidia specific features and support, doesn't mean they will. And it also doesn't stop the title working on other cards. It just means that nvidia owners may or may not get more features for their money. I don't see a problem with that, after all you don't go and buy a stereo just to tget the same features that every other stereo has, you get the one that gives you what you want. It's the same with gfx cards.


NVIDIA also announced that it has been awarded the exclusive OEM bundling rights to certain EA PC titles. Under terms of the agreement, NVIDIA will act as sole OEM distributor of certain PC titles published under the EA Games and EA Sports brands, bundling select content with its PC manufacturer and system builder partners.


And this just means they get to bundle games with their cards, again probably with exclusive content. Seems to make sense, especially because EA produce so much for the XBox. Does this mean that nvidia are in line to pick up the XBox2 contract?

RM. Andersson
04-10-03, 08:34 AM
It sounds a bit like Glide only games. I guess it will be almost the same thing.
I think MS will be a bit pissed since it will hurt the DX idea.

I mean any game that supports DX9 should work with any graphics card that supports DX9. All DX9 effects in the game must work with all DX9 compliant graphics cards. Anything less than that will hurt both the consumer and MS.
And such games should not be allowed to be called DX9 games because they are not fully compatible with the DX9 specification.
I hope MS will do something. They are a rather powerful company.

vampireuk
04-10-03, 08:38 AM
Thankyou SurfMonkey for injecting some sense into this, read the entire thing and think about it before you kick off guys;)

Slappi
04-10-03, 08:48 AM
Some of you guys are hypocritical. If ATI did this you would be throwing one of your FanATIc messageboard nVidia bashing parties. READ THE LINK FOR A CHANGE you misfits.

Vamp: Flibbled

Richthofen
04-10-03, 08:53 AM
"
It's not in EA's interest to abandon the other 62% of the market.

Last I seen, nVidia had only 32% of the market. Intel chipsets were the highest market share.
I believe that is far more worrying than anything.
"

Well i think it is because what you count here is overall 3d chipset market.
To bad that Consumers or companies with Intel Graphics never play any games.
So the market EA is looking at is the gamer market.
In this segment Nvidia has between 60 and 70% market share.
And well if a game runs good on a Card of IHV A and not good on a card of IHV B the consumer who bought that game next time will buy a graphics card from IHV A because the average joe has no background knowledge in this field.
All he knows is that the game runs perfect on Joe's friend's Nvidia card but sucks on Joes ATI card.
What do you think will Joe think :)

I know what he will think and what he will do next time.
Well i enjoy it because its business.
Its up to ATI to do something against that. If they can't well i don't care. Their problem.
I will have an Nvidia card when the time comes :)

Onde Pik
04-10-03, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by SurfMonkey
This would be the only worrying bit, if it meant for certain that EA would be producing nvidia only titles. But it doesn't, all they are saying is that EA will be using nvidia powered cards for dev work, just like ID do.

That isn't all they are saying. They are also saying that it will allow full fledged 3D experience on Nvidia hardware. Neglecting to mention any other vendors, now that doesnt mean that it will ne Nvidia only. But it certainly is something to worry about.


Originally posted by SurfMonkey

This is the bit that could cause problems, but I don't see why it should. They say they will discuss opportunities to add nvidia specific features and support, doesn't mean they will. And it also doesn't stop the title working on other cards. It just means that nvidia owners may or may not get more features for their money. I don't see a problem with that, after all you don't go and buy a stereo just to tget the same features that every other stereo has, you get the one that gives you what you want. It's the same with gfx cards.

You think that is the case????? I think not. It is the same with consoles NOT freaking gfx cards. The major advantage of PC gaming is the fact hat all games work on any pc that isnt over 5 years old. If this is official policy, where will it end? I wouldn't like to see actually. Anything that the FX can do so can the R9800, so can you please give me a reason why games should only work fully with one of these boards??. In the PC world there is a widely adopted feeling that everthing should be based on standards. When there has been news about MS not following HTML standards, people have been in an uproar. And with hardware it is IMHO 10 times more serious.

What would ppl do if MS released a version of windows that was specificly coded for Intel CPUs. That would mean that AMDs would only be able to do integer calculations if anything.


We have seen MS buy out companies to change releases drasticly to fit their X-Box (Like freelancer and Halo). This is a bad turn in the industry. Lets not welcome another bad turn.


Originally posted by SurfMonkey
And this just means they get to bundle games with their cards, again probably with exclusive content. Seems to make sense, especially because EA produce so much for the XBox. Does this mean that nvidia are in line to pick up the XBox2 contract?

True, we have seen ppl bundle stuff with diffrent cards before. But an official agreement only to work with Nvidia can't be good if you ask me. Thus ... it must be bad, maybe not by much but I don't really care. We have already seen developers code stuff specificly for Nvidia even though ATI cards could easily do the same stuff. Any step in the wrong direction from there could result in very bad things IMHO.

Chalnoth
04-10-03, 09:24 AM
Actually, I think this could be quite good.

There appear to be two parts of this agreement.

The first is that EA's developers will be using nVidia boxes for development. I personally doubt that this will have any significant effect, as these same developers are sure to also use ATI hardware. I also doubt that the game developers will be bound by this agreement...that is, that they'll have to primarily use nVidia hardware. After all, how would EA find out? The primary issue here is probably just that EA developers will being among those who get "first access" to new nVidia hardware.

The second part looks like it deals with exclusive games to be bundled with nVidia hardware. This is something I've been wanting to see for a long time. If it's used properly, early adopters could have quite a bit more to look forward to than just fancy tech demos. ATI should do a similar thing, but I think it was almost inevitable that nVidia would be the first to do something like this, as they have more money.

As a side note, I don't expect such exclusive titles to ever be anything great, nor do I expect them to ever become a significant portion of the PC games market.

RM. Andersson
04-10-03, 09:28 AM
It will be a problem even if you only buy Nvidia cards. Because you will have to pay more for them. And they do not need to release faster cards if they can compete with better game compatibility instead. That means slower more expensive graphics cards. Thats not something that Nvidia fans will benefit from at all.

I buy cards from both Nvidia and ATI. Iīm in fact on MS side in this case. And on the ordinary consumers side also.
I want to be able to buy any card and I expect all DX9 effects to work in all DX9 games if the card is fully DX9 compliant.
If the game only can use DX9 effects with one brand of cards I will not be happy at all. Even if itīs still possible to play the game with other cards in DX8 mode or with some DX9 effects turned off.

If Nvidia or some other vendor supports effects that is beyond the DX9 spec it is of course OK. Thatīs a very different situation.
If a card supports more advanced technology the owner should be rewarded. But I think the game should still be able to use DX9 with other cards if the effects are possible to do with any DX9 card. It will not be OK if you have to use DX8 or turn it off in that case. A standard Dx9 implementation with somewhat lesser quality would be OK.

nutball
04-10-03, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by RM. Andersson
If the game only can use DX9 effects with one brand of cards I will not be happy at all.

Is that what's being proposed? Or is that paranoia?

Kruno
04-10-03, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by nutball
Is that what's being proposed? Or is that paranoia?

It's called paranoia, nutball. ;)

Chalnoth
04-10-03, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by RM. Andersson
I want to be able to buy any card and I expect all DX9 effects to work in all DX9 games if the card is fully DX9 compliant.
Which will probably still be the case, but the games will just be bundled with specific video cards.

As for added cost, it does depend on what sort of agreement was reached. If, for example, there was just one game made for the entire GeForce FX line, and it was bundled with each and every GeForce FX card (including the 5200's and 5600's), then the volume would be high enough to where the game would only cost the consumer an extra couple of dollars per card (particularly if the bundled version was a modified version of another game, such as the enhanced Giants version that shipped with one GeForce3 model).

RM. Andersson
04-10-03, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by nutball
Is that what's being proposed? Or is that paranoia?

" EA development teams will use PCs powered by NVIDIA GPUs to create eye-popping 3D effects while allowing full compatibility across all PC gaming systems featuring NVIDIA hardware. NVIDIA and EA will also discuss opportunities to implement NVIDIA-specific features and special effects in several upcoming EA titles such as Madden NFL Football 2004 and others for the PC platform"

I dont know, really. It looks like it could be true.
What do you think "Nvidia specific features and special effects" means?

We will have to see what happens when such games are released.
I think itīs possible that you will have to turn off some effects if you own other graphics cards than Nvidia. Iīm not certain of course.

I can imagine that ATI-fans would say -This can be done with my card also if the game developer wants it to work with it.

The game developer would answer. -No, itīs not possible.

ATI-fan. -Yes, it is. If you do this and this and add this.

Game developer. -Perhaps. We cant afford to spend that extra time, work and money. If you want the effect to work you will have to buy a Nvidia card. And the game still runs perfectly with other cards but without that effect turned on.

Ati-fan. -I will never buy any games from you ever...bla bla bla


I can see this happening. But I dont know if it will.

Kruno
04-10-03, 10:29 AM
MR ANDERSSON! ( lol, the Matrix rules :lol: )

Here is a better description of the problem:

Joe: I want this effect added.

Dev: Sorry but it's just not possible on current GPU's.

Joe: Yes it is, <insert name of some guy> told me it can work.

Dev: Dude, there is no known way that I can implement this effect because current GPUs are not capable of such an effect, the fillrate and bandwidth just isn't there. Wait a few years.

Joe: **** YOU! You don't know what you are talking about. I know more than you do.

Dev: Dude, have you ever written a piece of software even half as complicated as a game?

Joe: NO! But I am still better than you.

Dev: *takes gun and shoots Joe*

:lol:

SurfMonkey
04-10-03, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Onde Pik
That isn't all they are saying. They are also saying that it will allow full fledged 3D experience on Nvidia hardware. Neglecting to mention any other vendors, now that doesnt mean that it will ne Nvidia only. But it certainly is something to worry about.


I seemed to have missed that part, the bit where a press release issued jointly from two companies has to include others. Of course they are going to to neglect mentioning other vendors. It was PR from EA and nvidia. I also seemed to have missed the bit where they imply that you won't get a fully fleged 3D experience on any other hardware. Maybe you are reading more into this than there actaully is.


You think that is the case????? I think not. It is the same with consoles NOT freaking gfx cards. The major advantage of PC gaming is the fact hat all games work on any pc that isnt over 5 years old. If this is official policy, where will it end? I wouldn't like to see actually. Anything that the FX can do so can the R9800, so can you please give me a reason why games should only work fully with one of these boards??. In the PC world there is a widely adopted feeling that everthing should be based on standards. When there has been news about MS not following HTML standards, people have been in an uproar. And with hardware it is IMHO 10 times more serious.


With consoles you buy the one that runs the games you like. With gfx cards you buy the one that provides the features you want at the price you like. They will all support DX and through that they will all support a standard level of features. Some vendors may provide more features, some may provide less. It is up to you the consumer to make the distinctin and choice at that level. It's not up the IHV who whoever to lead you by the hand through the decision making process. And if vendors didn't add extra features to their products, wthat incentive would there be to the consumers to purchase them. If they were all the same we wouldn't need nvidia, ATi, S3 etc We could all purchase Intel gfx cards built to M$ standards. And what a boring world that would be.


What would ppl do if MS released a version of windows that was specificly coded for Intel CPUs. That would mean that AMDs would only be able to do integer calculations if anything.


Well they kind of do, since all code is x86 compatible and even AMD has to follow this. So they developed extensions to their CPUs to add features that Intel didn't have. Hmmm, very much like gfx cards really. But you are happy with developers writing software with vendor specific support, 3DNow! in this case, which speeds things up only on AMD CPUs. But not with gfx card vendors extending their feature set and then devlopers using it to get extra functionality?


We have seen MS buy out companies to change releases drasticly to fit their X-Box (Like freelancer and Halo). This is a bad turn in the industry. Lets not welcome another bad turn.


But that's M$ through and through. Yet you trust them to make the decisions when it comes to DX?


True, we have seen ppl bundle stuff with diffrent cards before. But an official agreement only to work with Nvidia can't be good if you ask me. Thus ... it must be bad, maybe not by much but I don't really care. We have already seen developers code stuff specificly for Nvidia even though ATI cards could easily do the same stuff. Any step in the wrong direction from there could result in very bad things IMHO. [/B]

It's not an offical agreement to only work with nvidia, it's an agreement that allows then to bundle EA games with their cards. It's been happening since there were gfx cards. It is just pure paranoia to think that this is any different.

[general comment] ;)
Too many people are willing to just see the bad in everything that nvidia does, and this seems to be simply down to the fact that ATi are now no longer the underdog and that it is bad for nvidia to try and get back to the top, and some people don't like that.

ATi used to be the top dog before 3dfx\nv knocked them down, and they abused that position pretty well. Mostly by releasing naff hardware and sub-standard drivers, and why? Because they could, they were the topdog.

Most of the complaints that crop up now just seem to be snivelling whines with no substance to them. Play some games, get some fresh air, buy a dog, or get some therapy. Just stop biatching about stuff.

GlowStick
04-10-03, 12:30 PM
As a Radeon 9800 Pro user, that dose not worrie me at all. THey are just saying they are going to share in marketing, EA figures they can sell a few more copys if they slap a Nvidia logo all over their stuff, and Nvidia figures they can sell a few more videa cards if they have games slaped with their logo over everything, and the bare turth is, they can.

Hellbinder
04-10-03, 12:33 PM
It is great that there will be a standard type design for EA. I think we all have notice this far in the game that anything Nvidia can do ATi can do better... except when it comes to No AA and No AF.

The only reason this is true is becuase they attached a Vaccume cleaner to 10 cards and sold them :rolleyes: The rest of the world is not faster than ATI in non AA and AF situations.

Standards people Standards. People like Chalnoth and others with their totally short sited out-of-control Fanboy driven reasons for why this is good will someday pay the price. The price will be paid the day they decide to buy a different Type of hardware.

There is no posotive spin to this whatsoever. The same would be true if you removed Nvidia and Put ATi or any other graphics company in there. Game companies should be programming to the DX9 and OpenGL standards PERIOD.

SurfMonkey
04-10-03, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Standards people Standards. People like Chalnoth and others with their totally short sited out-of-control Fanboy driven reasons for why this is good will someday pay the price. The price will be paid the day they decide to buy a different Type of hardware.


I presume by this statement you mean actually mean anybody who doesn't agree with your point of view?

In which case we're suffering already, we're suffering your endless stream of fundie drivel, negativity, and constant over use of capital letters. We suffer because you choose to only post blatantly pro ATi comments and then sadly try and hide them under a veneer of having whats best for the consumer in mind. We suffer because you surf over here, rant for a while and then slink back to kindergarten to boast about your exploits.

Too right we're god damn suffering.

jbirney
04-10-03, 12:52 PM
SurfMonkey

vampireuk has asked us to keep it clean. No reason nor any useful info to your post :(


I agree with Hellbinder if in fact other effects are enabled in one vendors cards while another vendor (with the same class of hard ware that can do the same effect) is prevented from this option. Weather or not one IHV is used to develope, or can bundle a game with their cards is find by me. Even living with those stupid "the way its ment to be played" logo's is also fine. But when you stop supporting a standard and exclude another vendor, then that is bad.

Sazar
04-10-03, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by SurfMonkey
I presume by this statement you mean actually mean anybody who doesn't agree with your point of view?

In which case we're suffering already, we're suffering your endless stream of fundie drivel, negativity, and constant over use of capital letters. We suffer because you choose to only post blatantly pro ATi comments and then sadly try and hide them under a veneer of having whats best for the consumer in mind. We suffer because you surf over here, rant for a while and then slink back to kindergarten to boast about your exploits.

Too right we're god damn suffering.

well... frankly he does have points...

depending on which direction this goes... and we are all speculating here... it is either going to make no difference... to non-nvidia consumers... or will adversly affect them...

I am all for standardisation.. which is why I am not completely for Cg...

however... if there are things in hardware nvidia can do... which ati cards can't do... I see no reason why the same code cannot be expanded to include extra features... so long as there is STANDARDISATION... and the extra features are based off of this standardised path...

as for HB.. I think everyone knows he rants... but he does have some points in what he posts... even if you do have to sift through it to find the point..

SurfMonkey
04-10-03, 01:04 PM
But there is standardisation. It's called DirectX and it's controlled by Microsoft - one of the most open, consumer orientated, companies in the world. Well known for their even and fair business practices.

But that's competely off the point. No where in that PR does it state that EA will coding games that are nvidia only. The closest they get is mentioning that they may consider putting in support for extra functionality. The explosive gush of paranoia that this kind of statement exposes is, quite frankly, sad. Mainly beacuse they will be using either OGL or DX to develop their games. We have a standard already, it's there in place, and means that everyone who has hardware of a certain level can access the games.

I'm sure ATi are working hard with devs to get them to support the F-buffer and that they will have more than a few tech demos around to show it off in the near future.

And I admit that sometimes, within the foam flecked rants, HB can deliver a nugget of almost rational thought. But like you say they're bloody hard to find.

Spotch
04-10-03, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by SurfMonkey
I presume by this statement you mean actually mean anybody who doesn't agree with your point of view?

In which case we're suffering already, we're suffering your endless stream of fundie drivel, negativity, and constant over use of capital letters. We suffer because you choose to only post blatantly pro ATi comments and then sadly try and hide them under a veneer of having whats best for the consumer in mind. We suffer because you surf over here, rant for a while and then slink back to kindergarten to boast about your exploits.

Too right we're god damn suffering.

Over use of Capital Letters? What the Heck is that supposed to mean? Leave him Alone, he must be a Dev or a Technical/Legal paper Writer and is simply used to capitalizing Key words.

Besides he is right. :angel2:

One thing confuses me about all this though. Aren't most of EA games just published by EA and actually developed by other folks? Does this mean that a future requirement for being published by EA will be that it have specific NVIDIA hardware enhancements and or certification?