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-   -   GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance... (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=36041)

Raqia 09-02-04 03:43 AM

GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
Firing Squad recently updated their article about GeForce FX performance with the Half Life 2 engine:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...ife2/page5.asp

and in almost all cases, the 5950 has lower performance than even the ATI 9600 Pro! I'm quite surprised by this since the FX is superior both in theory and practice...

What could explain this besides perhaps the issue of using a full-precision floating point format?

ChrisRay 09-02-04 04:41 AM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
Ho boy, I'm sensing a flame thread occuring. I'll reply further tommorrow. Guys keep it civil.

svetli_pp 09-02-04 07:59 AM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
The reason why FX cards are so slow in DX9 Source is :) Valve. I am sure they do their dirty "little" tricks to promote ATI which badly needs it after devastating Doom3 benchmark results. But.... considering HL2 will be out around the release of HL3:) and that DX8.1 path is almost indiscernible to DX9 I think everything is similar to last year HLbenchmarking fuss. ATI needs it and it gets it -> after all Valve are very obligated for selling their game with XT series without having game at all. So lets wait and see when HL2 is around and 7800Ultra maybe how everything will settle down:)

WarheadMM 09-02-04 08:14 AM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raqia
Firing Squad recently updated their article about GeForce FX performance with the Half Life 2 engine:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...ife2/page5.asp

and in almost all cases, the 5950 has lower performance than even the ATI 9600 Pro! I'm quite surprised by this since the FX is superior both in theory and practice...
What could explain this besides perhaps the issue of using a full-precision floating point format?

and what benchmarks were YOU reading?? All the benchmarks i seen the 9800pro kicked the FX 5950 in the butt in DX9

Subtestube 09-02-04 08:28 AM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
He's comparing it to a 9600 Pro, not a 9800 Pro. No-one's arguing (yet) that the high end Radeon isn't faster than the high end GF FX. As to why the FX 5950 is doing worse than the 9600 Pro, I'd guess that HL2 actually requires the extensions to SM 2.0 basic that ATi implemented in that line. Hence, the GF FX series will be emulating them, and that's sloooooow. Just a guess, but it would explain the problems. Basically, unless someone goes through and write some FX specific shader substitutes, it may be that the FX series video cards will never compare with the Radeon 95xx+ series video cards in the specific case of HL2. I'm not a developer that has any association with anyone important, so this is all guesswork, and I have no evidence to back any of this up!

Heh.

Demirug 09-02-04 08:37 AM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
The real FPS valves for the DX9 Path on an NV3X are even lower than the values you can see at FiringSquad. The Water is not transparent on an NV3X it is simply not there. If I fake my NV35 deviceid in an NV40 deviceid the water is back and the FPS are lower than before. Someone else use an NV3X id with a R3XX Chip and the water disappeared again. Looks like a strange engine bug.

btw: I got a nice speed improvment (up to 50%) after I activate partial precision (FP16) on all shaders. Maybe there are some more % possible if someone make the shaders more NV3X friendly. But with more than 2000 shaders this is not a job for a weekend.

{Sniping}Waste 09-02-04 11:26 AM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
Its not a engin bug. The DX9 path is very heavy in DX9 shaders. The 5XXX FX is much slower in DX9 shaders then the ATI 95XX and up. Most of the DX9 games out now have littil DX 9 shaders so the proformans hit is not to bad on the 5XXX FX cards but Source is heavy use of DX9 shaders so the 5XXX FX speed will be slow and thats why the defalt setting is DX8 path for the 5XXX FX
Now the 6XXX FX is another story and should be fast in the DX9 path.

Demirug 09-02-04 11:57 AM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
{Sniping}Waste, I am not saying that the low speed is an engine bug. I was talk about the missing water.

I am know that the DX9 path makes heavy use of 2.0 shaders. I have a large file with all shader on my harddisk.

The low speed is a result of the general PS 2.0 problem that each GF5XXX have. But the bad optimized shaders make it more badly.

Raqia 09-02-04 02:13 PM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Demirug
btw: I got a nice speed improvment (up to 50%) after I activate partial precision (FP16) on all shaders. Maybe there are some more % possible if someone make the shaders more NV3X friendly. But with more than 2000 shaders this is not a job for a weekend.

This is a pretty interesting finding, were you using 3D Analyze? Also would someone bench the DX9 path under the 4x.xx detonators? I'd like to see if nVidia really has a better compiler w/ the 5x.xx + Forcewares or if it's all shader replacements...

Demirug 09-02-04 02:44 PM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raqia
This is a pretty interesting finding, were you using 3D Analyze? Also would someone bench the DX9 path under the 4x.xx detonators? I'd like to see if nVidia really has a better compiler w/ the 5x.xx + Forcewares or if it's all shader replacements...

No, I did not use "3DAnalyze".

I am using "DX-Tweaker". It is a D3D debug and diagnostic tool I am currently develop for my company. One of the plugins for the "DX-Tweaker" can add partial precision flags on any shader. There are plugins for other jobs like change cardids or caps. I will stop here because I am allready offtopic.

Lfctony 09-02-04 02:44 PM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by svetli_pp
The reason why FX cards are so slow in DX9 Source is :) Valve. I am sure they do their dirty "little" tricks to promote ATI which badly needs it after devastating Doom3 benchmark results. But.... considering HL2 will be out around the release of HL3:) and that DX8.1 path is almost indiscernible to DX9 I think everything is similar to last year HLbenchmarking fuss. ATI needs it and it gets it -> after all Valve are very obligated for selling their game with XT series without having game at all. So lets wait and see when HL2 is around and 7800Ultra maybe how everything will settle down:)

Erm, right. So they are using dirty tricks to make the FX cards slower, because the 6800 cards are faster in Doom3, yet they don't touch the 6800 cards. Yep, makes perfect sense. :lame:

Edge 09-02-04 04:20 PM

Re: GeForce FX 5950 and Source DX 9 performance...
 
At first I was a bit suprised, but then I remembered that the Source stress test is almost entirely shader limited. Obviously, the FX series has poor DX9 performance, but in most cases this doesn't have that big of an impact in-game since it's only a small part of the rendering procedure. But this benchmark does confirm my early suspictions: that the Source "benchmark" concentrates almost entirely on DX9 shader effects and is a fairly poor way to judge how the actual game will perform. Look at the HUGE gap between DX8 and DX9 modes with the FX cards: what games have anywhere near as big a performance hit on the FX series when going from DX8 to DX9 mode? Even Farcry only has at most a 40% hit when using DX9 mode on FX cards with full precision.

BTW, what ever happened to Valve's "mixed mode" that they used in Half-life 2 for FX cards? Did they totally abandon that idea after last year's E3 or something?


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