nV News Forums

 
 

nV News Forums (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/index.php)
-   NVIDIA FreeBSD (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
-   -   BSD, and AMD-64 Support (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=57446)

shimonsha 09-30-05 11:10 PM

BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
I submit that there would be a much greater interest from the
{Free, Net,Open}BSD users if the nVidia excellent products were
supported on their platforms.

I, for one, am stepping forward and volunteer to port any and all drivers
to said operating systems. Being that my religious zeal is expressed
away from my computer, I am willing to abide by any NDA necessary.

To the best of my knowledge, there is some FreeBSD support for the
i386 mode in FreeBSD on some drivers, and that is it. AMD-64 port
is needed for the Graphics card (my 7800 will not work with the Xorg
driver, for example), and some typical politics is probably behind the
migration from XFree86 to X.org, although I found the XFree86 driver
to run the 7800GT, but the X.org will not.

While some BSD supports some aspects of the nV product line,
not everything is supported on all O/S.

Talked too long... Ready to do.

shimon

gilboa 10-02-05 03:42 AM

Re: BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shimonsha
I submit that there would be a much greater interest from the
{Free, Net,Open}BSD users if the nVidia excellent products were
supported on their platforms.

I, for one, am stepping forward and volunteer to port any and all drivers
to said operating systems. Being that my religious zeal is expressed
away from my computer, I am willing to abide by any NDA necessary.

To the best of my knowledge, there is some FreeBSD support for the
i386 mode in FreeBSD on some drivers, and that is it. AMD-64 port
is needed for the Graphics card (my 7800 will not work with the Xorg
driver, for example), and some typical politics is probably behind the
migration from XFree86 to X.org, although I found the XFree86 driver
to run the 7800GT, but the X.org will not.

While some BSD supports some aspects of the nV product line,
not everything is supported on all O/S.

Talked too long... Ready to do.

shimon

The i386 driver is working just fine here. (FreeBSD 4.11), but can't really comment on the 5.x and 6.x trees.
As for AMD64, the search tool is your best friend.
This has been asked and answered (countless-times) before.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...t=41545&page=3

Quote:

Originally Posted by zander
There are technical problems with the FreeBSD/amd64 kernel that gate NVIDIA graphics driver support for this platform. NVIDIA has brought these problems up with FreeBSD developers and has been working with one of them to make reliable support for FreeBSD/amd64 technically possible, but unfortunately we can't provide a schedule for when this will be complete.

Please note that the FreeBSD/i386 driver is a native driver. It does not rely on Linux ABI compatibility features for its core functionality, but Linux ABI compatibility is optionally supported and Linux/x86 OpenGL libraries are provided to enable the use of Linux/x86 OpenGL applications on FreeBSD/i386.


shimonsha 10-03-05 09:15 PM

Re: BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
Boker-Tov,

Several comments:

* There are two separate and unrelated (other than the identity of the vendor - nVidia)
The first is the nForce, the second is geForce.

* There are two platforms and three operating systems under discussion here;
i386 and amd64 are the platforms, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD are the operating
systems.

* The original design (and I belive it is still true) of the xFree86 server we are using in all these
platforms (and indeed Linux as well) calls for O/S independent binary driver. In essence
(if not technically 100% accurate) the xFree86 "drivers" (the userland program that provides
the server with specific implementation details) are supposed to be the same, regardless of
Linux, Free, Net, or Open BSD. Yes, if it is Xfree86 (or Xorg 6.8.x) running on i386 (ia32 ?)
it should be running. If it is not, it is broken. If this last statement is not true anymore than
someone screwed up. RTFM.

* There is no Graphics support for amd64 X server (whatever the petty fight xfree86 or Xorg).
I did find the recent "nvi" driver to recognize my new fangled 7800GT card, but XFr3386
is out of favor these days :-(, at least where theBSD's are concerned, and the XFRee86
CVSup server is in a coma, and no answer to e-mail either...

* Regardless, I really would like to be able to use the "nvidia" driver. It is better than the "nvi"
driver in more than one way.

* Who are "the FreeBSD developers" ? Unlike most corporations, FreeBSD does not have
designated developers. Anyone who feels like it can write code for any of these operating
systems. He/She may have NIH problems with having their code accepted into the official
source tree, but having things checked into the "official" source tree has nothing to do with
the functionality of the code. There is no certification authority I am aware of.

* FreeBSD internal dynamics aside, they have nothing to do with the many thousands of NetBSD,
and or OpenBSD users who would love to use nVidia products, even if they are not a Linus
followers.

* The platforms under discussions here do not have a central group supporting their need.
nVidia allocates whatever resources it wants to support products. The return-on-investment
rule guides their actions. Nothing wrong with that. I am actually happy to see they actually
do as much as they are doing now.

* Since I am somewhat versed in all the operating systems here, and have the resources to
support a certain amount of activity, I am offering my services to perform the tasks needed to
get all three operating systems suppored on the two platforms.

* I have not claimed there is zero support now. I do claim the support is incomplete and can be
made more complete. I further claim to have the ability, the know-how, and the will to provide
for making the missing pieces be.

In Summary: I am not bitching, complaining, criticizing, nor even moaning. I am simply offering
nVidia help in broadening their coverage.
Since the price is right, the return-on-investment argument cannot be used
intelligently to oppose my proposal.
Since I am a trustworthy person, code security argument canot be used here.
Since I have enough technical training to perform the job, the argument of excessive
support cost cannot be used here.

This leaves us with only the "since I did not think about it first, it must be a bad idea"
argument. And for this argument my friends, I have absolutely no reply!


Cheer up!
I am here to help, not topple

Simon

gilboa 10-05-05 03:22 AM

Re: BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shimonsha
Boker-Tov,

Boker Tov and Shana Tova to you too.
(To English speakers: Good Morning and Happy new year)

Quote:

* The original design (and I belive it is still true) of the xFree86 server we are using in all these platforms (and indeed Linux as well) calls for O/S independent binary driver. In essence (if not technically 100% accurate) the xFree86 "drivers" (the userland program that provides the server with specific implementation details) are supposed to be the same, regardless of Linux, Free, Net, or Open BSD. Yes, if it is Xfree86 (or Xorg 6.8.x) running on i386 (ia32 ?) it should be running. If it is not, it is broken. If this last statement is not true anymore than someone screwed up. RTFM.
Yes... and no.
While the general design of X drivers calls for platform free design, you'll soon find yourself interacting with OS components that require platform-dependent (or rather arch-dependent) code.
More-ever, the nVidia driver are composed of three parts:
* X driver.
* Kernel driver.
* OpenGL library.
While the first and the last items *may* be platform free, the Kernel driver is both OS and arch dependent.

Quote:

* Who are "the FreeBSD developers" ? Unlike most corporations, FreeBSD does not have designated developers. Anyone who feels like it can write code for any of these operating systems. He/She may have NIH problems with having their code accepted into the official source tree, but having things checked into the "official" source tree has nothing to do with the functionality of the code. There is no certification authority I am aware of.
Which makes life rather difficult for nVidia.
Again, if you accept nVidia's claim that the FreeBSD AMD64 arch is too unstable (and incomplete) at this point. nVidia is forced to sit and wait until someone decides to clear up the mess for them.
I doubt that nVidia (or any other GPU manufacturer) is willing to spent resources on fixing the OS just so they can support it.

shimonsha 10-08-05 02:17 AM

Re: BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
Thanx for the info but I already know most al of this.
I apologize for the delay inmy reply; From time to time I have to refrain
from typing much (too painful).
I am sorry again for failing to make my point clear. Let me try one more
time:

* I expect nothing additional out of nVidia. I volunteer to do all the
necessary work myself. What is your objection to that?

* If you do not want to help me, fine. This is a volunteer effort and you
can stay on the sidelines. No hard feelings.

* You keep talking about FreeBSD. There are 2 (two) other operating
systems, that quite frankly are more interesting to me: NetBSD and
OpenBSD.

* You may not know how to make a video driver O/S-neutral. This is
to be expected. I will not be surprised if the nVidia engineers do not
know either. That is fine too. In neither case is it a mark of a weak mind.

* But, I know, and I am willing to do it for free.

* Waiting for FreeBSD to stabilize is more dreamy than waiting for Linux
to stablize, and yet theLinux driver is useful.

* Lack of audience is a silly argument in this industry. This is what my
"superiorts" at Intel said of Linux.

* What is your definition of "stable" I am running FreeBSD on several
machines here, along with OpenBSD. They never crash. Yes, never.
And one ofthem is RELEASE_6. I do shut some of them from time to
time as they are experimental, and I need to test new kernel features
I add.

* Provide Apple and Lettuce, and the deer will come. I am not trying to
make a financial case to nVidia (which probably is not listening to a
single word here :-), just an apeal for a favor: "Let me help myself and
it will help you too. Since it will cost you nothing, what do you object
to?"

I hope I made py point clear.

Shana Tova!

gilboa 10-08-05 08:03 AM

Re: BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
I hope you are aware that I'm not connected, in any way to nVidia.
Personally, I'd like nothing more then having nVidia open bigger parts of their driver and let the community help. However, due to NDA/licensing problems, I doubt that we'll ever see a open nVidia-sponsored driver. You can try PM zander and ask him. Who knows, maybe they'll be willing to sign you up on their NDA and let you contribute to the BSD driver.

As for writing OS natural driver.
A. I do it for a living. (Windows/Linux kernel drivers)
B. Keep your /smart/ insults to yourself. Period.

I believe this discussion (at least my part in it) is over.
Good bye.

shimonsha 10-08-05 03:30 PM

Re: BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
I still am offering to help, contribute in any way I can.

As to Item B, I fail to see the insult. Far be it for me to insult a fellow
man. Especially in public. Please accept my public apology for any
insult you perceive in my words. My intention is to increase the coverage
of good software and good hardware, not to insult people,
so let me repeat again:

Mr. Gilboa,
If I somehow insulted you, please, please accept my public humble
apology.

Simon

gilboa 10-09-05 06:10 AM

Re: BSD, and AMD-64 Support
 
Apology accepted. Think nothing of it.

I fully support your quest to get better and hardware and software support; I two, am waiting for the AMD64 FreeBSD to ABI to stabilize (I won't mind having other SMP *BSDs to play around with... though I do most of my non Linux work on FreeBSD) so nVidia card release x86-64 drivers for it.

More-ever, I'm fully ready ready to contribute time and effort to help, singing on what-ever NDA I'm required to get the thing rolling.

Well, as I said, I'd suggest you try and contact zander.
Who knows, maybe you can make a solid case and persuade him.

Gmar Hatima Tova,
Gilboa


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.