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-   -   Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1 (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=75441)

mintSlice 08-21-06 07:56 PM

Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
There's been some discussion about why NVIDIA's graphics drivers don't already support xorg-7.1 and why we are having to wait for such support.

Much of this is based on the argument that NVIDIA shouldn't have to answer to specific distributions and while there's some argument here, they seem quite happy to be ahead of the game with Windows support, so you might ask why Linux is any different (and the answer will most likely be that they have more Windows users). I'll let this slide. It's doesn't actually have anything to do with why NVIDIA should already have a driver capable of supporting xorg-7.1. I just wanted to raise this line of thinking in the hope that we can put it to sleep and look at why NVIDIA really should be supporting xorg-7.1 already.

So, why should NVIDIA already be supporting xorg-7.1, even thought no distribution has produced a stable distrobution using xorg-7.1?

The answer to this is simple. NVIDIA proposed the changes to xorg-7.1 and as such they should stand by those changes.

Xorg (and XFREE86) often breaks compatibility with the NVIDIA drivers, and while this is frustrating (especially NVIDIA's often slow response) it's understandable that NVIDIA might not just to address this issue.

But in this case, NVIDIA actually proposed the break in the xorg API and as such I would (and do) expect a much better response from NVIDIA. Put another way, in this case, NVIDIA got the changes they wanted, but have failed to deliver their half of the problem.

You can read all about NVIDIA's proposal at http://developer.nvidia.com/object/x...entations.html which includes a whitepaper written by Andy Ritger who works for NVIDIA and presented as XDefConf 2006. In this whitepaper Mr Ritger argues "the case for using the existing XFree86/X.Org DDX loadable driver framework to achieve a production-quality composited X desktop."

So, why is it that having made their case and received the changes they requested in xorg, NVIDIA has failed to deliver on their part of the equation. This isn't a simple case of keeping up with changes others have inflicted upon themselves, it's a case of NVIDIA failing to support changes they themselves have proposed.

What gives NVIDIA?

AaronP 08-21-06 10:23 PM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Just to set the record straight, the change that actually broke the ABI was this one [gitweb], which wasn't a change that originated at NVIDIA.

Lamieur 08-22-06 01:02 PM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mintSlice
So, why should NVIDIA already be supporting xorg-7.1, even thought no distribution has produced a stable distrobution using xorg-7.1?

Oh really? I'm from the Fedora camp and let me say Fedora Core 5 would get Xorg 7.1 as a testing update about a month ago (and probably as a stable update till now), if there weren't NVIDIA users complaining.

There are other distributions shipping Xorg 7.1 as an option, but defaulting to 7.0 for the same reason.

Look at it this way: Xorg 7.1 is here for months, it is a released stable version of the X server. The NVIDIA folks have only two components to watch for (Xorg and Linux, the kernel), not distributions. New versions of X come up rarely (at the rate of Windows service packs, perhaps) and it's just not right to keep us waiting for months after a change in the code (see the link above - the change happened over 8 months ago, it was known to break the driver at that point, so it was even possible to make it available before Xorg 7.1 release).

But now there's no need to cry anymore. I've heard NVIDIA has our driver ready and they'll be releasing it this week.

Now that we (almost) have Xorg 7.1 support, can we ask really, really politely for AIGLX support? :) Pleease!

mintSlice 08-22-06 05:43 PM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamieur
Now that we (almost) have Xorg 7.1 support, can we ask really, really politely for AIGLX support? :) Pleease!

You should be in luck. AIGLX is part of xorg-7.1, so support for xorg-7.1 means support for aiglx.

wizdom 08-22-06 06:09 PM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mintSlice
You should be in luck. AIGLX is part of xorg-7.1, so support for xorg-7.1 means support for aiglx.

This isn't true at all. The driver module API which is what prevents proper function in Xorg 7.1 currently is something that should have been fixed months ago. Implementing the GLX extension necessary for AIGLX is optional, and not due until the 9xxx series, supposedly.

We've had the "it'll be released this week" diatribe for the last month or so. However, NVIDIA employees have wisely avoided giving out exact timescales...

StringCheesian 08-22-06 06:09 PM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mintSlice
You should be in luck. AIGLX is part of xorg-7.1, so support for xorg-7.1 means support for aiglx.

At least with 9xxx anyway. I've heard the new 8xxx release will be 7.1 compatible but won't support 7.1's new features like AIGLX. But that's still good enough for now - at least we won't be stuck with Xorg 7.0 anymore.

Xichekolas 08-22-06 08:46 PM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Not that I totally disagree with the above posts... because the X.org 7.1 thing would be nice to have fixed... I would like to thank nVidia for actually dedicating programmers to writing linux drivers... they could be like the ever-so-evil Broadcom and just totally leave it up to the community. (Disgruntled accidental owner of a new enough Broadcom card that nothing supports it.)

JoshPrismon 08-22-06 11:06 PM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
BTW, Ubuntu Edgy Eft is also Xorg-7.1 I personally can not wait for the next driver version. I am also runing XGL right now and the user experience difference is absolutly shocking.

Unfortunitly XGL has zero support for XvMC right now, and I can't get any sort of opengl_vsync working which results in way to much load and tearing.

The sooner we can get AIGLX the better.

mintSlice 08-23-06 06:02 AM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wizdom
This isn't true at all. The driver module API which is what prevents proper function in Xorg 7.1 currently is something that should have been fixed months ago. Implementing the GLX extension necessary for AIGLX is optional, and not due until the 9xxx series, supposedly.

Yes, you're right and I was about to come back here and apologize for getting it wrong.

It will be nice to have support for xorg-7.1. This doesn't change that fact the fact that NVIDIA proposed and supported changes in xorg that result in AIGLX, and it still leaves me wondering why there such bad support for their own ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizdom
We've had the "it'll be released this week" diatribe for the last month or so. However, NVIDIA employees have wisely avoided giving out exact timescales...

I'm certainly not holding my breath.

irondog 08-23-06 07:20 AM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Making a 7.0 driver work for 7.1 should be not too hard, that makes it even more frustrating. If I recall correctly the Xorg developpers bumped the versions of all xorg-x11-drivers without any further changes after the patch that changed the ABI. This was nessesary to make people aware that the new X server needs different drivers. In fact it is more like: "remember to recompile your drivers, we have changed some headers and so the ABI has".

NVIDIA could have had support for 7.1 for months if they just recompiled their 1.0.8762 drivers and bumped the version. Instead of that they closed the 1.0.8xxx branch for a while.

d4rk74m4 08-23-06 07:21 AM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
I'd also like to clear something up.. NVIDIA's drivers *already* support AIGLX (Accelerated Indirect GLX), and have done so for quite some time (ages before the open-source drivers supported it in fact).

GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap has nothing to do with it.

luminoso 08-23-06 07:32 AM

Re: Why NVIDIA should already have support for xorg-7.1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamieur
But now there's no need to cry anymore. I've heard NVIDIA has our driver ready and they'll be releasing it this week.

Ohh.. I'm not shore.. I've been using linux for about a year.. I tottaly droped MS (i think that everyone agress thar paying for XP OS only for play its quite stupid).

I'm very disapoited with nvidia.. I'm ~x86 on gentoo and I think I have the right of using must recent stable software.. Also, I'm so tired of waiting for nvidia release.

Shame on nvidia.. :thumbdwn:

Also.. It's not all about gaming.. It's also about desktop performance..


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