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-   -   Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings? (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=94636)

radu.c 07-10-07 11:10 AM

Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
Hi,

I'm trying to output 1080i over a DVI connector, under Linux (nVidia 6150 card, 1.0.9631 drivers coming with Ubuntu 7.04), and I don't have much luck. I tried all the modelines on the Internet I could possibly find. X says it outputs the resolution, yet the monitor says it can't sync.

For comparison, a specialized set top box device that outputs 1080i on HDMI (using a HDMI-to-DVI convertor) works fine.

Does anyone know what the industry standard (i.e. 'official') modeline is (if there is one) for 1080i at 50Hz and 60Hz (for both America and Europe)? I.e. what is the set top box outputing that I can't output using the nVidia card?

Sorry for being blunt when I say this, but this is a "black and white" question. There are plenty of threads "trying to get this to work" already, and I don't want to start yet another one.

Side question: Some sources say the refresh rate is 60Hz, other say it's 59.94Hz. Which one is correct?

ubikdood 07-11-07 10:47 AM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
What monitor are you using ?
Also, have you tried VGA ?

Answering your side question, example for a 1080i clip :
VIDEO: MPEG2 1920x1080 (aspect 3) 29.970 fps
For such a clip to be displayed correctly you would need a 59.94Hz modeline, since it's interlaced (2 fields per frame).

radu.c 07-11-07 01:04 PM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ubikdood
What monitor are you using ?
Also, have you tried VGA ?

It doesn't quite matter what monitor I'm using (I'm using a few different models). I don't think the set top box (that I use as a reference signal generator) cares about the monitor either, yet it displays a 1080i picture just fine (on all of the monitors I use). That's what makes the question the "black and white" kind. It either has an exact answer, or it doesn't.

Here's something interesting displayed by a Samsung monitor:

With the set top box, it says the frequencies for 1080i are H: 33.6 kHz, V: 59.8 Hz, but with the nVidia card and one of the modelines (generated by xtiming.sf.net ) it says the frequencies are H: 33.9 kHz, V: 29.8 Hz. Now, the bold part doesn't look right to me.

VGA says H: 33.9 kHz, V: 59.7 Hz, with the same modeline.

radu.c 07-11-07 02:15 PM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Well, in case anybody asks, here's the modeline:

Modeline "1920x1080" 77.6 1920 1952 2240 2272 1080 1104 1110 1135 interlace

And I also tried the latest drivers, with the same result. And the machine has the latest BIOS. And whatever questions are to be asked, they don't make any difference.

And there's a bug report log attached too, in case some nVidia bug passer gets by this post.

The issues still remains black and white though, as I'm starting to know quite well what I'm doing and asking for.

tld 07-11-07 03:00 PM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
The 1080i Modeline I'm using is the following:

Code:

ModeLine "ATSC-1080-60i" 74.25 1920 1960 2016 2200 1080 1082 1088 1125 Interlace
...which seemed to be the most generic 1080i 60Hz modeline listed here:

http://knoppmythwiki.org/index.php?page=XModLines

I did have to use:

Code:

Option      "ModeValidation" "NoVertRefreshCheck"
...to get the nVidia driver to accept it. Also note that I'm using an interlaced display (Hitachi RP CRT) and had to enable deinterlacing in MythTV in order to prevent serious periodic tearing when playing interlaced content...just like many others here, due to interlacing issues that apparently may never get addressed.

In any case, I could be mistaken, but I thought that using a name like "1920x1080" for your custom modeline could get interpreted as a built-in mode and not use your custom modline at all.

Tom

radu.c 07-12-07 06:18 AM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
2 Attachment(s)
Using the "NoVertRefreshCheck" override is not such a good idea, but it doesn't help anyway. The modeline IS accepted with or without it. It's just that the driver seems to output 30 Hz instead of 60 Hz on DVI.

I attach the Xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log files. I added the "my" prefix to the modeline name this time, to test your theory, but it doesn't make any difference at all.

The Xorg.0.log file was made with -logverbose 9. You may notice how the driver thinks it's validating a 30 Hz mode. Also, look in the xorg.conf file and see that the vertical refresh range is 59-61 (as draconic as it can get, leaving a +/- 1Hz tollerance level), so a 30 Hz Modeline wouldn't pass the validation tests. Later in the log, it says that the 1920x1080 @ 60 Hz mode has the same parameters it validated when it saw it as 30 Hz.

As you can see, I'm trying my best to tell the nvidia driver not to second guess what I want. And with the current config, I did just that. From my point of view, this looks like a driver bug (people say that 1080i over DVI works just fine under Windows).

ubikdood 07-12-07 04:03 PM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by radu.c
It doesn't quite matter what monitor I'm using (I'm using a few different models).

Well, then I guess you'll have to buy an oscilloscope and figure it out for yourself. Good luck.

crow 07-12-07 04:16 PM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ubikdood
Well, then I guess you'll have to buy an oscilloscope and figure it out for yourself. Good luck.

You're missing the point. The question has nothing to do with what monitor you're using. The question is about a modeline that generates a signal that is compliant with the ATSC specification for 1080i. That's the point of a standard--you don't have to worry about which monitor is implementing it; it it's an HDTV, it should accept and display the signal correctly.

As to the question at hand, my experience with nVidia drivers is that they don't handle interlace modelines correctly.

With 8xxx and earlier, it would accept a 1080i modeline from the monitor (the EDID modes), and generate a working signal, but it would give weird information in the log. Also with 8xxx and earlier, it seemed to be impossible to specify a valid 1080i modeline explicitly--I never got it to work without EDID.

With 9xxx and later, they seem to have changed how the EDID modes are parsed, so they're equivalent to the manual modelines. This means that the 1080i modeline from your HDTV that worked with 8xxx will no longer work with newer drivers, and you're likely out of luck if you want to specify one manually.

rerushg 07-12-07 08:33 PM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
There are several threads that get into this issue but for clarity I'll try to sum it up as I understand it. Those with better clarification or understanding are welcome to chme in.

Yes, as in XP you would expect the driver to poll the displays EDID and simply sync to what the display prefers. The video card is obviously and imminently capable of doing that but the driver just won't do it. The vertrefresh seems to be the problem. 60hz is the common refresh reported by EDIDs (50hz in Europe). That's 30hz per frame @ 2 frames per complete interlaced picture. For some reason the driver rejects these modes because it's looking for 120hz. Makes no sense. Seems like an easily fixed goof but it has yet to be fixed. Whether this is a "bug" or perhaps a deliberately imposed limitation linked to (perhaps) some commercial "understanding" with MS is open to conjecture.
So you can't get digital. You're limited to analog.
TV-out would be the logical choice. Simply specify the TV standard (1080i). This works just fine but there is no overscan control for folks with CRT's. And custom modelines are ignored in TV-out mode. Screwed again.
So the only method available is to specify custom modelines and apply appropriate options in xorg.conf to force the driver to "don't think, just do what I say."

radu.c 07-13-07 06:56 AM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crow
As to the question at hand, my experience with nVidia drivers is that they don't handle interlace modelines correctly.

I think this is the key phrase for this topic.

As far as I can tell, it's problematic only with DVI. On Component the resolution is given by the TV Standard, and on VGA the modelines is not being messed up by the driver.

I've been reading the 1080i section of the CEA-861 standard. The modeline I'm using and the other ones showing up on the Internet seem to be close to what the standard specifies.

I also have one that is just 1 vertical line away from the standard (front porch, vertical blanking interval, and back porch total 44 instead of 45):

Code:

ModeLine "my1920x1080" 74.25 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1094 1124 interlace +hsync +vsync
As for my black and white question, I guess this modeline is very close to answering it and it's up to the nVidia guys to fix their drivers (some time this millennium).

Thanks for the replies.

ubikdood 07-13-07 07:14 AM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by radu.c
As for my black and white question, I guess this modeline is very close to answering it and it's up to the nVidia guys to fix their drivers (some time this millennium).

One more thing. Rerushg's post gave me an idea, and beware the heresy : can you make it work on windows ?
If you can get 1080i to work in windows (through DVI), then install powerstrip and extract the X modeline from it. Then use that modeline in linux.

If it fails in linux, then... you've got an irrefutable proof that the drivers are broken.

ubikdood 07-13-07 07:35 AM

Re: Tried and true HDTV 1080i settings?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crow
You're missing the point.

Agreed. After reviewing the thread I realized that the driver is actually halving the vertical frequency.

Sorry, too much information. The internet is killing my inner child.


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