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Old 07-10-09, 08:04 AM   #105
Atomizer
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 379
Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

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Originally Posted by Misfire View Post
Well can't really blame them for not advancing gameplay, they are good at what they do and that is game engine technology + full utilization of the hardware we have, and that in itself is impressive.

They shift the game industry forward with each new engine they make starting since wolf3d and so on.

Although, unreal engine is taking some of that thunder away right now, such a shame though, we need more variety in game engines! so hurry up ID!
I agree, Carmack is somewhat of a programmer genius, IMO
Idtech 4 was just the wrong tech for the wrong time, I believe, people were more interested in large open areas, where as idtech4, mostly showcased as rather enclosed, at least until megatexture, I think that will change a little with idtech5 though, as its easy to see with Rage, that the new engine is going to be well suited to all kinds of scenery, and has things that Unreal Engine doesnt have(go back and watch the original Rage techdemo videos, where they show the level editor aswell).




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Originally Posted by Protoplasym View Post
A. I hear what you're saying and understand that this is the general stance from most of the die hard original Diablo fans.... but seriously: how hard is it to simply 'make that an option'... I mean c'mon.... make it an option make it an option With said box checked in the options menu, the camera won't move and will only allow zoom in/out like the originals... but with it unchecked, people who want freedom of movement can rotate/tilt/and have big zoom in/out. Honestly... after playing NeverWinter Nights and that totally badass camera... it was 'very, very' hard to get going with Titan Quest. In TQ, here I was in this 'amazingly' well done little world... flowing grass, awesome water shaders/etc... and wtf, all I can do is zoom in and out. I've noticed the weird frame rate issues when zooming in on some spots of the world, and I imagine that Iron Lore simply couldn't figure out why they were losing so many frames when the camera was zoomed in... thus most likely lost all hope of implementing freedom of view for the player, because I'm sure with the engine in it's current state, it would have killed the frames.

If it's the same case with D3s' engine, then so be it, but in all honesty, considering Blizzard freakin prints their own money with what they pull in from WoW, there are (imo) zero excuses to not give players like me the best of both worlds. And with it being an option, players like you that want to go through it oldschool like, can have it their way too.

Being a programmer, you tell me: is it truely 'that' hard to design a gorgeous engine like TQ or D3 with 'that' many highly detailed models on the screen at once, 'and' give the player full camera freedom. I noticed there really aren't that many models on the screen at once in games like NeverWinter Nights, hence my assumption...
Honestly, will a fully 3d engine, I see nothing holding them back from doing a free cam, tech wise, and I am not sure about the slowdown you mentioned, I cant recall experiencing such a slowdown myself in TQ, and yeah I cant think of any reason why itd slow down from zooming in, unless there is alot of particles flying around(I noticed in alot of games when the camera gets close to alot of particles things start to bog down a bit), that I can explain however, since whereever the particles are, they are drawing on top of the stuff behind it, so those pixels essentially are being "overdrawn"(ie, the GPU has to calculate it twice), its fine when the particles are small on the screen, since its only a few pixels that get overdrawn, however if you zoom in the particles cover more of the screen so more pixels are being written to the screen more then once, and if they cover your whole screen, 1 particle means every pixel is touched twice, 2 particles means they have to touch the pixels 3 times etc, and when you look at spell effects and the likes, you're usually talking about hundreds of particles, as to rotating the camera, that would be the same regardless.

I mean afterall it only draws whats on the screen anyway, so having the camera at a slightly different angle isnt going to change too much, the reason for the fixed camera has more to do with how things feel, in my opinion, the free camera works in NWN1/2 because it is a slower paced game, more often then not I found myself pausing and issuing individual commands to each character in my party, having a fixed camera would limit your view of the scene, since you really need to take everything in.
Diablo however is pure hack and slash, its 1 vs many, even if you get a mercenary or pets, you never control them directly, they usually do their own thing, and attack anything nearby, so having a free cam isnt as important to gameplay in this case, itll only cause gameplay to break into a slower pace.
Diablo uses pure mouse movement, theres no keyboard movement, and generally you are holding down the mouse button while running around, jaming hotkeys, clicking on enemies, with no auto attack also means you cant let go of the button to hold the right mouse button and do a quick camera movement(plus its usually used as a secondary ability hotkey).
Thats my reasoning for it all anyway, take it how you like


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B. I assume you're talking about a mod for Doom3. Check these badboys out if you hadn't seen them... they're not complete, but I can't wait to play them if they're ever finished.

http://edgeofchaos.planetdoom.gamespy.com/news.htm

http://www.doomworld.com/unholy/future/

http://doom3.filefront.com/file/NightMare_Mod;83827
I doubt this guy will ever finish this, lol... but it looks soooo badass... it'd definitely make it so I could play Doom3 for life.... this guy is thinking about random monster placement... totally in line with what I envision for what todays shooter 'should' be.

http://www.facinghell.com/

http://www.doomchronicles.com/
Doesn't look like they ever finished the SP for this...
Actually, I am working on the Quake 1 engine, itll be a complete standalone project, I implemented HL1 BSP(almost identical to Q1 BSP) today in order to learn the structure better, I havent gotten the lightmaps rendering properly yet, but I am not sure if I will bother, since I will be stripping out both Q1 and the HL1 support and adding Q3 BSP support, then I plan to expand the format from there.
I will take a look at those mods though, I mean thats where I started out Q1 modding and HL1 modding(actually learnt C++ from working on the HL1 SDK....not the best way to learn :P )


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C. Wow, that sounds oldschool! I'm sure you're doing it because it's fun for you and a learning experience taboot. I miss Tetris on my Gameboy... good times!
Yeah thats pretty much the only reason I am doing it, I dont have much interest in the chip8 itself, and while I am probably at a level that the chip8 is too simple of a start, it does actually give a great foundation for future emulation projects(which will give me better understanding of the more complex hardware in PCs).


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D. Thank you very much for the indepth explanation... it's all coming together for me now. With how you explained it, it sounds like.... AHHH ha! I think I got what they're going to do for Doom 4... having the target framerate at 30 instead of 60 'might' give them the extra juice needed to have hordes of baddies on the screen at once!!!! That makes sense to me. I don't see them using the extra room to improve the AI, not ID anyway, lol!

Awesome, maybe we'll have a true Doom 2 remake now! with lots and lots of baddies to run through
Thats actually something I didnt think of, more enemies would be a great thing for Doom 4, and makes sense with the lower FPS target, though it does conflict with the "looking 3x as good" statement, though no doubt it WILL look better, having more enemies will limit how much they can push the graphics, but if they did it that way, I am sure itll be a better game


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E. Lol, funny screenshot for sure. I've got it.. and part 2 gold. Haven't started 2, but I'm a couple levels into 3, it's been fun so far... I'm in some jungle level atm, haven't loaded it up in months though. I thought the reviews were WAY off base. Besides the engine not letting me force AA for whatever reason (thank god the engine looks good), V-Sync works and the frames are blazing fast. I think it looks great, has a really solid feel to it for a shooter, and is fun. Linear and obvious that it didn't have a huge amount of funds put into it, I think it turned out quite well considering....
Yeah, while ive heard people sad bad things about its graphics and the like, its not a bad game, and I actually reinstalled it this week since I had a cousin over who loves the SOF series, but I couldnt find my original SOF1 disc, so I installed this instead



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I agree, but I disagree in that I think Doom 3 has the possibility to be the best Horror Shooter of all time. If that nightmare mod (that I linked to ^) ever comes to fruition, it'll end up being my fav game of all time. The atmosphere really gets to me when I'm there on Mars... the sounds, the placid sour look of everything, the darkness... it's the enemy placement/deployment that's holding it back... so in that sense, I think ID was 'right' on the verge of being very innovative at making the best horror shooter ever.

I truly don't understand how oversight like this happens at a top notch Video Game Company.... it's not rocket science... they had the formula 'so' close to being perfect.

WHOEVER the hell said, "lets spawn bad guys in all the time" needs to be flogged!
I cant say I disagree, I mean I did spend more time playing Doom 3 then some other games(like SOF: Payback above), and even imported the textures and normalmaps into my super old Quake1 engine(mostly riding on other peoples code, there is some talented coders who worked on Quake1 engine projects), not even sure if I have my old source code, would be interested in taking a look at it again...great, now im gonna have to hunt for it just to quench my curosity :P
Doom 3 itself though, was definently much slower paced then other shooters, especially at the time, borrowing some elements from SS2(audio logs etc), and thinking back now, they did an awesome job of keypads/computer interaction, turning your crosshair into a cursor when looking at the screens.
I also remember a video I made, which I am gonna hunt for now aswell :P
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