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Old 02-27-03, 03:34 AM   #19
DustSmoke
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Join Date: Dec 2002
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But you see, this is not an ethical issue. NVIDIA does not 'officially' retain any warranty or liability when it comes to their drivers. (Just like most companies but they don't even make the cards so they are not liable in any way whatsoever) In the legality of it all, the only support that 'is' there is the support from that piece of software on your hard drive and everything else is at the discretion of the NVIDIA entity and/or the hardware manufacturer. But your not paying for the software so what do you expect? I can't think of a company that doesn't work like this in this situation so I don't know what your talking about when you state they 'have' to support this, or 'have' to support that, or say they support anything at all. If you're referring to some hardware company like PNY or ASUS that says they support Linux and wont, then you have a point. NVIDIA thou, is not on this boat and is mainly a software company that has a patented UDP architecture for their drivers and thus so constrains them from releasing them as Open Source without completely disembarking and destroying their own patent. You gotta admit, it's a nice feature and makes their drivers much more developed for all the devices under the UDP list. I know I'd take that patent off their hands for them if they let me.

I never said I think the kernel developers are doing anything wrong. I was simply making a point. The plain fact is NVIDIA does not have ultimate control over AGPGART and cannot intervene without releasing their own proprietary rights to the world. They are not required nor would I expect such a double standard of doing everything twice. They can (and do) answer questions and give out specs on their chipsets in situations just like this. But the community is the one that has to make up for it as it is a community project. I personally do not enjoy people that don't have a clue as to how this stuff works, fail to look it up or even read about it, then commit to a definitive bashing attitude because this is the way it works in windows. This is not windows and you got this fantastic piece of community sweat for free! If you have a major problem with new hardware support on Linux, simple logic shows you shouldn't even be using Linux. Obviously these people don't remember or never knew how it 'used' to be. That is the point I was and am trying to make. Besides, if they truly cared about the best over all performance of their ATI cards, they would be sending XiG $100 bucks for their superior X server and drivers and looking up hardware support before they bought for Linux.

I'm sick of the 'ATI is a saint' argument too. If they were such a saint nobody would be using their proprietary closed source drivers and the DRI project drivers would be worth a damn because ATI would make them. But I still have to reiterate the plain fact that NVIDIA cannot and should not have to expect ATI to develop their closed source drivers for NVIDIA's closed source drivers. ATI, NVIDIA = Pot, Kettle in this aspect. This is what's called being stuck between a rock and a hard place. You have a very viable closed source piece of software being meshed with open source software, where do you draw the line? Thank NVIDIA and ATI for even embarking on such a dilemma to give you the 'choice' so many people so arrogantly overlook, not bash them.

But onto the whole nForce issue. I can't for the life of me understand why on earth anybody would have bought this hardware in expectations that everything would mesh like a charm in Linux. They bought it because they are windows users. nForce SCREAMS windows users! (by the way, that's not 'bad' in my book that you use windows, that's just fine by me, what you prefer or need is your endeavor, not mine so I will not judge you for it.) From my point of view, I cannot understand why anybody would even want these chipsets from un-established NB/SB chipset maker in the first place! (And I'm not even on the subject of buying super integrated chipsets yet!)

NVAGP, yes, I get no higher performance with it than AGPGART. I simply used it on occasions because "it does work for me" no harm there.

I bought a ti4600 specifically because I use Linux and occasionally enjoy benefits of playing a 3d game from time to time, enjoy the video support and like the twinview options. I have radeons and even older geforces too. I want the success of each company under Linux just as much as the other one so the Linux world as a whole will benefit from it. But I have yet to experience the amount of support and performance from the ATI side as opposed to the NVIDIA side. And I accept the fact that at some point, some time, there is going to have to be closed source support for this to really every happen. These companies exist because of money, while that may not be the perfect world, it's how it works. (You get paid to go to work, so why are you complaining?) I simply cannot find a development aspect of the Linux kernel that entitles NVIDIA to physically re-engineer the way the Linux kernel, or development structure works so you're ATI cards work on an nForce with their drivers. I can imagine the screaming from the larger portion of the community if they did start taking control over the AGPGART aspect of it.

Linux simply is not designed to work the way people are commenting about on these threads or anywhere else I've seen these complaints on this issue. I cannot be emphatic enough about how this is a touchy subject in the Linux development community. At least they attempt anything at all. Until the community has resolved this issue whether that be with or without the help of NVIDIA, you're pretty much up a creek. There is no way you can sit there and tell me that it was not feasible or foreseeable on 'your' part that this issue would exist had you done your homework before buying for Linux. But it's not like you're alone here, we are all known to do such things from time to time. It's just that I don't remember hearing the KT400 users complaining like this when they couldn't use their chipsets at all. I just think you should stop smacking the gift horse in the mouth like it's your god earned right. Just show your support and ask them for a workaround nicely and maybe the developers will work something out for the Linux community

Last edited by DustSmoke; 02-27-03 at 03:33 PM.
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