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Old 02-08-07, 07:32 AM   #49
thor1182
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

and that would have been an utter disaster
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Old 02-08-07, 07:41 AM   #50
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butter Bandit
Remember, the original design of the PS3 was that it would have 2 Cell processors, one for graphics and one for physics/AI.
And they scrapped that for a very good reason.

I'd also like to remind you that its only been in the last year of the PS2's lifespan that these high level specialized techniques have even been used to squeeze out every last bit of performance from the old beast. Do not be shocked if the PS3 turns out the same way. While this is true for all consoles, it seems especially true for the PS2/PS3, to the point of it being a significant hindrance.

But then again, I suppose we'll wait and see. I'm sure Unreal Engine 3 will help everyone a great deal. It's probably a sign of what a bitch the PS3 is to program for that even Japanese developers are licensing engines, something they almost never do.
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Old 02-08-07, 02:53 PM   #51
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

the Cell should not have been used as the central CPU. It would make for a great secondary CPU that does physics and what not, but it is the suck for gen purpose computation which is 80% of game engines, if not more.
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Old 02-08-07, 03:03 PM   #52
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

games do not need a general purpose cpu but only a specific subset of instructions are needed to be optimized. Hence, why floating point calculations were such a big deal back in the day. It's also why you had ps2 console ports that were comparable to much higher-end pcs, the first prince of persia game comes to mind. The processor on the ps2 was a lot slower, but it handled game specific code much better than a p4(which is a general purpose cpu) at the same speed would have.
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Old 02-08-07, 03:05 PM   #53
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

well the P4 was a peice of junk... so you know...
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Old 02-08-07, 03:57 PM   #54
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thor1182
the Cell should not have been used as the central CPU. It would make for a great secondary CPU that does physics and what not, but it is the suck for gen purpose computation which is 80% of game engines, if not more.
So why not make new game engines that cater to Cell? Physics, AI, collision detection, etc is what Cell does best the only "mistake" Sony made was not going with nvidia to make a custom GPU from the get go.

It'll be interesting to see what they decide for PS4 since they are supposedly working with nvidia for another project. Not to mention they could throw 2 Cells or 1 Cell with more SPU's which devs would already be familiar with when PS4 hits.
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Old 02-08-07, 04:08 PM   #55
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

Cell version 2 with TWO or more gen purpose cores in it.
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Old 02-08-07, 04:31 PM   #56
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thor1182
the Cell should not have been used as the central CPU. It would make for a great secondary CPU that does physics and what not, but it is the suck for gen purpose computation which is 80% of game engines, if not more.
And I presume you are an expert on the Cell architecture in order to say this? I don't want to single you out because a lot of people are saying the same thing with essentially no justification other than "some guy on the internet said it", but that doesn't make it any more true. The cell is designed for multimedia and vector math (ripped from Wikipedia, so take with a grain of salt), both of which are used to a large extent in game engines (audio for instance plus physics and a lot of general engine math is vectors). That's an awful lot of what the CPU is used for in a modern game. Throw in AI and netcode and you've probably covered 99% of the CPU usage in a game.

Mind you, I'm not a PS3 apologist (see my avatar for proof). I think it's too expensive for a game console and just not worth buying right now, but that doesn't mean the Cell is a worthless POS. If you want to say it's too hard to code for, fine. Maybe it's just plain underpowered compared to the 360 processor (I know someone posted an article to this effect earlier), fine. Too expensive, fine. But unless you can back it up don't try to tell me that its architecture is not well-suited to games.
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Old 02-08-07, 05:26 PM   #57
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

More or less from some of their own white papers, and what I have peiced together form other things. They have said that its not good at gen purpose. Now I am not saying that it doesn't have potential, but the direction that game engines need to go on the PC side of things, the cell is practically a 180 from that direction that direction.

From everything I have read it points to one Gen purpose CPU that controls SPE's that are math and multimedia accelerators. I think the main core tells the SPE's what to do, and not a seperate stand alone core. Now the OS may have put a layer of abstraction over this, so this is not the case but I am not sure.
There is also a limitation to calculation sizes due to cache size. So you get one main game thread that will call all the accelerators as needed.

New game engines are written to have on thread for the main loop that controls the AI thread, graphics thread, physics thread and so on. How do you get engines like that to work optimally on the Cell. From what I understand, you don't. You go back rewrite it to be more "single" threaded in nature that threads out when needed to call the SPE's when you can.

The problem with all that rewriting is it is real expensive, slows down overall dev time, and possibly lowers the chances of getting a quality cross platform release if one is made at all. Games that started on the PS3 will probably stay there becuase of this dev time overhead. Games that start on the PC, may never make it to the PS3, lag real behind the 360/PC release, or be a subpar release in comparison. Evidence of a cross platform release coming up short on the PS3 can be seen in what people have said about F.E.A.R.

On paper the Cell is a good idea, and you have to give Sony props for trying something new. In that vein though, communism was good on paper but in practice it didn't work. They will get good games out of the PS3, but people should not expect it to blow away the PC or the 360.
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Old 02-08-07, 06:09 PM   #58
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thor1182
More or less from some of their own white papers, and what I have peiced together form other things. They have said that its not good at gen purpose. Now I am not saying that it doesn't have potential, but the direction that game engines need to go on the PC side of things, the cell is practically a 180 from that direction that direction.

From everything I have read it points to one Gen purpose CPU that controls SPE's that are math and multimedia accelerators. I think the main core tells the SPE's what to do, and not a seperate stand alone core. Now the OS may have put a layer of abstraction over this, so this is not the case but I am not sure.
There is also a limitation to calculation sizes due to cache size. So you get one main game thread that will call all the accelerators as needed.

New game engines are written to have on thread for the main loop that controls the AI thread, graphics thread, physics thread and so on. How do you get engines like that to work optimally on the Cell. From what I understand, you don't. You go back rewrite it to be more "single" threaded in nature that threads out when needed to call the SPE's when you can.

The problem with all that rewriting is it is real expensive, slows down overall dev time, and possibly lowers the chances of getting a quality cross platform release if one is made at all. Games that started on the PS3 will probably stay there becuase of this dev time overhead. Games that start on the PC, may never make it to the PS3, lag real behind the 360/PC release, or be a subpar release in comparison. Evidence of a cross platform release coming up short on the PS3 can be seen in what people have said about F.E.A.R.

On paper the Cell is a good idea, and you have to give Sony props for trying something new. In that vein though, communism was good on paper but in practice it didn't work. They will get good games out of the PS3, but people should not expect it to blow away the PC or the 360.
isn't the cell proc supposed to be the gen purpose porc... while the graphics chip is made by nvidia which is based off the 7800 architecture.... now this is just an assumption... but

if the regular xbox can make halo 2 look pretty damn good on a graphics chip based on a geforce 3 (or was it 2...) than shouldn't the ps3 be able to output graphics many times more that of an xbox

maybe you can see where im going with this...
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Old 02-08-07, 06:57 PM   #59
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Default Re: So... What games for PS3 are actually good and OUT(or out in the near future)

well thats just the thing, its not a good gen purpose CPU. Its more of a DSP in nature. Now they will be able to get good stuff out of it, just it will not be this all powerful solution that will make it the best thing on the block.
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