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Old 03-13-07, 06:01 PM   #13
energyman76b
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Default Re: Request for the Linux Dev Driver folks: module auto-comp

The 'theme' of this thread was the kernel driver module. Not the userland part.

If you update the driver, you have userland changes, yes. But that is not something that can be solved with a 'boot rebuild script'. Also, you can update the driver while X is running. Gentoo does it for ages.

If you update X, more than just the nvidia driver breaks. This is something that you don't do in the middle of a working day, do you? So a X update is completly out of scope of the nvidia driver. It is something that the distribution and the one doing the update has to care about. Or do you really demand 5 douzend 'rebuild everything after any update' scripts incorporated in the nvidia installer? Any more great ideas?

And even if you are mad enough to change the whole system under the butts of the users, who forces you to do it?

Rebuilding the kernel module does not take minutes, mere seconds is much more correct. Even on old hardware the time spent in PCI and IDE discovery is usually much longer than the time needed to build a module.

I am not 'opposed' to use nvidia 'outside of its niche market', I am opposed to stupid ideas that can not work!

As I said, there are A LOT of different distributions, each doing boot and everything else in its own way. You can not provide a simple boot script that works everywhere and rebuilds the driver on every distribution. You just can't. Demanding that is just stupid. Nothing else.

The distributions on the other hand know exactly how they are structured and can easily create appropriate scripts. So it is the distributions responsibility to do so. If they don't blame them. Some (gentoo) can do it. Why not others?

And nouveau - it does not provide anything, the nv driver does not provide at the moment - it is just a lot more unstable. So using it 'by default' is just mad. If you don't need hardware 3d, just use nv and everything will be fine.

And no. No nvidia update needs to be treated as unique. You can easily automate the installation. Others do it. Where is your problem? What is the problem to run the installer after updating X and the kernel? Or use the distributions scripts for that? Hm?

Maybe, just to get a clue how easy it is to deal with nvidia, X, kernel and drivers updates, you should have a look at the way gentoo does it.
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Old 03-13-07, 06:24 PM   #14
macemoneta
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Default Re: Request for the Linux Dev Driver folks: module auto-comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b
The 'theme' of this thread was the kernel driver module. Not the userland part.

If you update the driver, you have userland changes, yes. But that is not something that can be solved with a 'boot rebuild script'. Also, you can update the driver while X is running. Gentoo does it for ages.
Yes, a script can solve both issues. I'll be happy to contract with Nvidia if they need guidance on this issue.

The official Nvidia driver does not allow a refresh while X is running. I've already requested that functionality previously, and it was declined.

Quote:
If you update X, more than just the nvidia driver breaks. This is something that you don't do in the middle of a working day, do you? So a X update is completly out of scope of the nvidia driver. It is something that the distribution and the one doing the update has to care about. Or do you really demand 5 douzend 'rebuild everything after any update' scripts incorporated in the nvidia installer? Any more great ideas?
Yes, X can be updated during the day, without impacting the existing console session. No, addressing the three or four primary methodologies will cover better than 80% of existing distributions. This will cover 100% of corporate environments, and leave a small number of Linux users no worse off than they are today.

Quote:
And even if you are mad enough to change the whole system under the butts of the users, who forces you to do it?
Many (large) businesses run 24 hours a day.

Quote:
Rebuilding the kernel module does not take minutes, mere seconds is much more correct. Even on old hardware the time spent in PCI and IDE discovery is usually much longer than the time needed to build a module.
Running the Nvidia installer takes minutes. Since the userland must be addressed at the same time, this is the only official and supported way to update the driver.

Quote:
I am not 'opposed' to use nvidia 'outside of its niche market', I am opposed to stupid ideas that can not work!

As I said, there are A LOT of different distributions, each doing boot and everything else in its own way. You can not provide a simple boot script that works everywhere and rebuilds the driver on every distribution. You just can't. Demanding that is just stupid. Nothing else.

The distributions on the other hand know exactly how they are structured and can easily create appropriate scripts. So it is the distributions responsibility to do so. If they don't blame them. Some (gentoo) can do it. Why not others?
Ad hominem argument? Our discussion has reached an end.

Quote:
And nouveau - it does not provide anything, the nv driver does not provide at the moment - it is just a lot more unstable. So using it 'by default' is just mad. If you don't need hardware 3d, just use nv and everything will be fine.
Are these the same 'mad' distributions you want to support Nvidia without source, without transparency, and without documented changes?

Quote:
And no. No nvidia update needs to be treated as unique. You can easily automate the installation. Others do it. Where is your problem? What is the problem to run the installer after updating X and the kernel? Or use the distributions scripts for that? Hm?

Maybe, just to get a clue how easy it is to deal with nvidia, X, kernel and drivers updates, you should have a look at the way gentoo does it.
Your exposure to the variations in the Nvidia hardware/software appears very limited.

I've continued this discussion because it provided the opportunity to express some of the issues I have with Nvidia. You can feel free to continue to rant. I'm unsubscribing from this thread.
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