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Old 06-22-03, 05:56 AM   #61
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The performance numbers in that tests have not changed since the 9700's release. "However" SO we can only assume these optimisations have always been there
That's a fair assumption. I for one don't really keep track of the exact numbers given in a review, unless things look ridiculously fishy.

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SOme early 8500 drivers Showed horrible game performance in Game test 4, I am wondering if the 8500 has similar optimisations. Because ATI claimed the original test was not fair because it did not emphasise their new technology


I read this before these cheats were found, but didn't think much of it.


But now I must admit. I find this "very" curious





http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic...radeon-04.html


What do you think stealthhawk? but it looks like a cigar is a cigar in this case, Nature was never meant to be a Pixel Shader 1.4 Test. Rather a 1.0 Test . As the "only" Changes to 3dmark was the advanced Pixel Shader test. Nature was "never" changed
Well, I would say that the r8500 most likely has some detections for 3dmark2001 GT4. I also wouldn't be all that surprised if some general case optimizations played a part in the extra performance. The early r8500 drivers weren't that hot, so it is believable.

To say that there is no direct optimizations would be foolish.
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Old 06-22-03, 09:16 AM   #62
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however nothing that I have read or seen the last serveral months appears to corroborate the character assisination you are putting forth chris... Terry may not be the nicest or most ethical guy in the world... but I have yet to see any evidence that supports your claims of a 2-faced liar/hypocrite...
This whole business with Solomon wasn't enough for 'ya?

CM is just around to tote the company line. I'd be willing to bet you he had a direct order from one of his bosses (or perhaps the ATI CEO himself) to go to R3D and stay there. And he has just about the entire R3D community eating out of his hand.
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Old 06-22-03, 09:27 AM   #63
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This whole business with Solomon wasn't enough for 'ya?

CM is just around to tote the company line. I'd be willing to bet you he had a direct order from one of his bosses (or perhaps the ATI CEO himself) to go to R3D and stay there. And he has just about the entire R3D community eating out of his hand.
/me does seagull(not Steven ) impersonation

/me goes and eats bread from CM's hand

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Old 06-22-03, 09:39 AM   #64
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Originally posted by saturnotaku
This whole business with Solomon wasn't enough for 'ya?

CM is just around to tote the company line. I'd be willing to bet you he had a direct order from one of his bosses (or perhaps the ATI CEO himself) to go to R3D and stay there. And he has just about the entire R3D community eating out of his hand.


Yeah, that's it...it's a conspiracy. Shhhh, please don't tell anyone.
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Old 06-22-03, 10:21 AM   #65
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Yeah, that's it...it's a conspiracy. Shhhh, please don't tell anyone.
No, no conspiracy. He's doing what any good PR person does.
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Old 06-22-03, 10:37 AM   #66
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No, no conspiracy. He's doing what any good PR person does.
I fully agree, but that's why I like Terry. He's only a PR guy when he HAS to be a PR guy....the rest of the time he's just a regular person.

I can respect him doing his job and the things he's forced to say, he does the balancing act a lot better than most I've seen in the industry. (In fact he's the very best at it I've seen. )

Terry is gonna HAVE to walk the company line when it comes down to "push comes to shove" time, it's his job....but I appreciate the other time he spends on the boards too just shooting the bull and helping.

That's one of the reasons I got so pissed off at Solomon ripping on him, he was picking a fight with an un-armed man with his hands tied behind his back!

Sometimes Terry has to be the ATi PR guy, HAS TO! This was one of those times and I didn't see any point in making the guys life any tougher when he keeps trying so hard to help make the people in the communities life better.
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Old 06-22-03, 12:59 PM   #67
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I completely disagree, And We "have" gone through the whole thread again, Catalyst Maker "had" been dismissing it. Catalyst maker "Had" led ATI users to believe that they're drivers were already capable of it.

Why do you think all the users completely and totally believe the fact that "ATI drivers were already capable of it"

Well. You guessed it. Catalyst maker told them they were, You are referring to a single thread when that was his attitude for the longest time.

There's a thread where I posted it. He tries to push of the issue by asking us "Do you know what it does?"

You are referring to this one thread, I am referring to MULTIPLE threads prior to that where CAT Maker has dismissed it as a marketing hack and already doable in drivers, Which very much explains why so many people have stated it's already doable in ATI drivers.

I mean if you don't know. You don't know. Terry only reacts when he's in the spotlight. Which he acted accordingly "We will look into it" In that thread

Read my above post. Read Just further indication that he is BSing us along the way, I mean come on, When is a cigar a cigar? I don't trust him. You shouldn't trust him either. All he wants, And his company wants. Is for you to buy their products.

Understanding this "distinction" will make you alot more objective about things. Its no different than what Nvidia PR spokes people do. But It's a "lot" easier to filter out his "crap" as I would call it. By the simple fact he posts a lot.
personally I don't care about CM since I don't post much on the r3d boards anymore.. I used to back before all the trolls and ati v/s nvidia thing got out of hand... now I basically go for the technical support and driver information... plus a few tidbits from time to time..

ergo i don't take everything he says to heart I read through a few threads about digital vibrance and the one where CM responded and initially stated what he did about DV as being something he felt was possible... it became apparent soon after that he seemed not to know about DV and what it did.. and eventually he stated that he and the driver team would take a look @ it and if the user base wanted such a feature they would implement it...

I buy my products based on various reasons and needs... none of which involves CM or anyone smoking pipes

personally I think DV is a feature that should be an option... but the way many make it sound it appears as if they WON'T buy a video card unless they have DV available... fair enough... I didnt find the colors to be that much more 'vibrant' that I would put off a purchase... but thats just me...

saturnoku... concerning solomon... thats all well and good but I dont know what discussions solomon had with CM or any other ati staff and I am unaware of the legality of the issue... they both did what they did.. and some sort of compromise was reached @ the end... which was unpleasant at best...
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Old 06-22-03, 04:14 PM   #68
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I buy my products based on various reasons and needs... none of which involves CM or anyone smoking pipes
Exactly. I could care less about CM or any of the PR monkeys from any hardware company. I just buy the best product that suits my needs (and that I can afford of course).

That said, I have to agree with Solomon on this issue about CM being two-faced. He put the heat on 3DC for hosting those drivers, yet in the next sentence he tells someone to go ahead and use the driver he was condemning Solomon to host.

The issue has nothing to do with drivers, but everything to do with how someone representing ATI has handled a particular situation. If CM had simply kept his mouth shut, or told the user in question to hold out for a week for the official 3.5 set, a whole lot of aggravation could have been avoided. Instead of owning up to having been called out, CM put his fingers in his ears and started singing to himself. I'm sorry, but if you ask me that's simply not right.
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Old 06-22-03, 05:14 PM   #69
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personally I don't care about CM since I don't post much on the r3d boards anymore.. I used to back before all the trolls and ati v/s nvidia thing got out of hand... now I basically go for the technical support and driver information... plus a few tidbits from time to time..

ergo i don't take everything he says to heart I read through a few threads about digital vibrance and the one where CM responded and initially stated what he did about DV as being something he felt was possible... it became apparent soon after that he seemed not to know about DV and what it did.. and eventually he stated that he and the driver team would take a look @ it and if the user base wanted such a feature they would implement it...

I buy my products based on various reasons and needs... none of which involves CM or anyone smoking pipes

personally I think DV is a feature that should be an option... but the way many make it sound it appears as if they WON'T buy a video card unless they have DV available... fair enough... I didnt find the colors to be that much more 'vibrant' that I would put off a purchase... but thats just me...

saturnoku... concerning solomon... thats all well and good but I dont know what discussions solomon had with CM or any other ati staff and I am unaware of the legality of the issue... they both did what they did.. and some sort of compromise was reached @ the end... which was unpleasant at best...

Thats exactly how we should feel, Realise that CM is a PR machine, Just like any other PR machine.

Knowing this makes it alot easier to deal with him. This really isn't about DV, Driver cheats or anything else,

I feel he is misleading the ATI community,But thats personally my opinion.

I use Catalyst maker for a source of information of what "may" be included in future driver releases, But I wish people wouldn't take everything he says to be "the absolute truth" Because it's not his job to be our friend, It's his job to keep his job and convince you to buy their products :P
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Old 06-22-03, 05:18 PM   #70
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That's a fair assumption. I for one don't really keep track of the exact numbers given in a review, unless things look ridiculously fishy.



Well, I would say that the r8500 most likely has some detections for 3dmark2001 GT4. I also wouldn't be all that surprised if some general case optimizations played a part in the extra performance. The early r8500 drivers weren't that hot, so it is believable.

To say that there is no direct optimizations would be foolish.

This is what bothers me a bit here,


Lets assume for example these original numbers for Game Test 4 are correct without 3dmark optimisations.


With the 3dmark optimisations we see about 25 FPS increase in performance, Ok thats fine,


But we see the same with the ATI card, Are we to assume the original 25 FPS and the 47 FPS we're seeing now are more likely the real numbers for this cards 1.0 shader power?

Most likely yes, Given the current hardware evolution and the r300 was never meant to show off the power of DirectX 8.0 specifications.


Later after the Radeon 9700 Pro was released. nvidia released its Det 4.0X which provided a massive boost to that game to narrow the performance gap between the two cards,

You got to admit it's somewhat compelling. Which company is showing the real shader performance, Is the r300 really not that much better than a Geforce 4 at integer DX 8 shader routines? Who knows at this point. It's impossible to tell
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