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Old 01-13-08, 05:23 AM   #73
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaco
Example: Before Paramount had their ass bought out to HD DVD they made specialized transfers for Blu-Ray that was superior to HD DVD. One of the noticable: Mission Impossible 3.
You have to be kidding me.

http://xylon.haloapplications.com/fo...mpossible3/01/
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/missioni...detail_2x.html

Unless you consider macroblocking/artifacting on Tom Cruises' face, on the transition of his arm raised up & the sky, and all along the bumper and license plate of the exploding car "superior".
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Old 01-13-08, 06:44 AM   #74
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

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Originally Posted by Ruined
You have to be kidding me.

http://xylon.haloapplications.com/fo...mpossible3/01/
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/missioni...detail_2x.html

Unless you consider macroblocking/artifacting on Tom Cruises' face, on the transition of his arm raised up & the sky, and all along the bumper and license plate of the exploding car "superior".
Obviously I can see that I was wrong regarding MI3 i those pictures are correct and I can only assume that they are. I know a guy that has both HD DVD and Blu-ray players who told me the examples of MI3 and The Prestige, apparently he was wrong about MI3 (The Prestige is still a valid example unless you can prove it otherwise? hidefdigest also gave the BD version a higher audio score).

But my general impression still stands. Blu-ray has gradually grown out of it's crappy-MPEG2-encodings-infant-stage an newer releases are similar to HD DVD in video quality. BD has always had the upper hand in audio quality. Blu-ray has been lagging behind in interactive features but is now catching up fast as only 1.1 and 2.0 players were announced at this CES. And if you think about the current and future adopters which will make up the far majority of the userbase, not just the early adopters, I still believe Blu-ray has more potential. Obviously the extra capacity and the extra data bandwidth that makes a lot higher bitrates possible on video and a lot more uncompressed audiotracks available has not been evident so much yet though there are a few titles that really outshines anything, especially Pioneer Labs' tranfers (they work on Disney's and Buena Vista's transfers) are unparalleled from what I've seen IMO. What I also think is superior is when BD can hold the extra material on Harry Potter 4 also on the same disc while the US HD DVD releases had it in SD and the Europeans got it in HD but on a second disc.

I may or may not be right about Blu-ray potential being fully more and consistently utilized in the future, I guess we'll have to see about that

BTW looking back I think I overreacted a bit to Peoples Agent's post. He may prefer HD DVD so much that he'd rather go SD DVD and piracy in the future, that is somehow HD DVD fanboyness but I think I came off as an ass back then, I apologize
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Old 01-13-08, 07:32 AM   #75
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilchris
King Kong, like porn, should probably stay on SD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...1&postcount=39

It just shows how crappy ( fake ) the CG is when HD DVD cleans it up.

You'll find the biggest differences in HDM v DVD in closeups of faces.

Stargate, a BD exclusive.:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=137

No "They had to go with the lowest common denonminator" excuses.
I actually thought Kong looked pretty good... when he was standing still... movement just killed it... looked freaking terrible.
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Old 01-13-08, 09:05 AM   #76
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaco
Obviously I can see that I was wrong regarding MI3 i those pictures are correct and I can only assume that they are. I know a guy that has both HD DVD and Blu-ray players who told me the examples of MI3 and The Prestige, apparently he was wrong about MI3 (The Prestige is still a valid example unless you can prove it otherwise? hidefdigest also gave the BD version a higher audio score).
The Prestige audio & video are slightly better on Blu-Ray, that is correct. But to be honest that is the only title I can think of that is dual format and has better PQ on Blu-Ray. I can think of at least 10 that are dual format and have better video and/or audio on HD DVD. In the case of The Prestige, I believe the encode was simply a rush job and catered more to availability than quality; while the HD DVD didn't have a lossless track it had a ton of DD5.1 tracks of different languages - getting rid of just a couple of those would have allowed for a lossless track. And on the video side, most of the movie is identical, though there are a few shots with slightly more artifacting on HD DVD; it looks like the encoder dropped the ball - must not have been the same guy who does the US Warner encodes. Comparison shots here:
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/theprest...-vs-hd/01.html

Quote:
But my general impression still stands. Blu-ray has gradually grown out of it's crappy-MPEG2-encodings-infant-stage an newer releases are similar to HD DVD in video quality.
I agree, though I don't believe it has the ability to be signficantly better in video quality - given the care HD DVD had more than enough space/bandwidth for quality picture.

Take a look at the dual format encode "Nature's Journey." It has over 11mbps higher bitrate on BD than HD DVD, virtually maxing out BD's bandwidth at a constant video bitrate, yet it failed to look any different than the HD DVD version:
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/naturesj...-vs-hd/01.html

These next-gen codecs seem to plateau at around 20mbps.

Quote:
BD has always had the upper hand in audio quality.
Yes and no. For instance, all of the dual format Paramount releases have higher bitrate audio on HD DVD - and many of the dual format Warner releases have a lossless track on the HD DVD but not the BD. That being said, the bandwidth of HD DVD makes 24bit/48khz lossless soundtracks more difficult but not an impossibility (16bit/48khz lossless has been on HD DVD since launch) - The Bourne Ultimatum, for instance, had reference video, lossless 24bit/48khz sound, and PiP video commentary. The new VC-1 encoder can operate at even lower bitrates without losing video quality and hence those extra bits can now go to audio.

With all that being said, despite many people's claims otherwise, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can tell the difference blindfolded between 1.5mbps lossy sound and lossless of any sort. Or, someone who could tell the difference between 16bit and 24bit. They are very subtle and often nonexistant.

Quote:
Blu-ray has been lagging behind in interactive features but is now catching up fast as only 1.1 and 2.0 players were announced at this CES.
True, but the vast majority of those players are very expensive. The cheapest 1.1 standalone is $499 list and it has no nextgen audio decoders builtin (Panasonic BD30). The cheapest 2.0 standalone will be the Panasonic BD50, and it will likely be well over $600. Denon just announced two players over $1000 and they are not both 2.0.

HD DVD's "HD-A30" for the most part fits BD 2.0 specs and it was available for $249 over Christmas. That is a huge price difference, and a reason why many gravitated to HD DVD.

Quote:
And if you think about the current and future adopters which will make up the far majority of the userbase, not just the early adopters, I still believe Blu-ray has more potential.
Potential for what, though? As time goes on, video becomes easier to compress and takes up less space, not more. The man behind the dials gets better at his job and the encoding hardware/software gets more efficient. Over time the difference between HD DVD/BD would have gotten even smaller, not larger, IMO.

You could just as easily argue that BD has less potential due to the more restrictive DRM, that we will see less interactivity and portability being worked on due to both lack of standards and DRM concerns.

Quote:
BTW looking back I think I overreacted a bit to Peoples Agent's post. He may prefer HD DVD so much that he'd rather go SD DVD and piracy in the future, that is somehow HD DVD fanboyness but I think I came off as an ass back then, I apologize
I think that it is a bit of an overreaction to go back to SD DVD and piracy, then again the DRM is very overbearing and has the potential for disaster (BD+ Advanced Countermeasure has the ability to directly write to your hard drive and can even install a rootkit if you are using an admin account!) therefore some may be wary to adopt.

I have a BD player now, but I don't believe the quality is any better than HD DVD because it has been proven that it is not. Its simply a matter that HD DVD lost the war, so what can you do.
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Old 01-13-08, 09:08 AM   #77
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilchris
King Kong, like porn, should probably stay on SD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...1&postcount=39

It just shows how crappy ( fake ) the CG is when HD DVD cleans it up.

You'll find the biggest differences in HDM v DVD in closeups of faces.

Stargate, a BD exclusive.:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=137

No "They had to go with the lowest common denonminator" excuses.
King Kong was one of the best PQ HD-DVDs I've ever seen. I know I haven't jumped into the HDM pool like everyone else has but from what movies I've seen, that is one of the clearest pictures.
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Old 01-13-08, 11:44 AM   #78
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilchris
King Kong, like porn, should probably stay on SD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...1&postcount=39

It just shows how crappy ( fake ) the CG is when HD DVD cleans it up.

You'll find the biggest differences in HDM v DVD in closeups of faces.

Stargate, a BD exclusive.:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=137

No "They had to go with the lowest common denonminator" excuses.
You are kidding about King Kong right? You have never seen this movie in the theaters and watched the HD DVD? You have to be kidding.
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Old 01-19-08, 07:07 AM   #79
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

So, I have a question for the experts. Microsoft sided with HDDVD initially, but never produced a player with HD built in. Do you think it was for cost cutting purposes, or did they know HDDVD was the likely loser. If Blu Ray wins (and honestly they both are so similar that I cannot appreciate the difference to any great extent unless I was a video and audiophile), do you think an add on Blu Ray player would be produced by Microsoft? To me, it would be feeding Sony's bottom line and I do not perceive that happening. BTW, I own both formats.

In the end, though, even if HDDVD dies out I can still watch the movies I own .
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Old 01-19-08, 07:46 AM   #80
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

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So, I have a question for the experts. Microsoft sided with HDDVD initially, but never produced a player with HD built in. Do you think it was for cost cutting purposes, or did they know HDDVD was the likely loser.
It would have been impossible due to technical reasons regardless of the actual reason - at least prior to 2008. The XBOX 360 requires a 12x DVDROM drive by spec and the only HD DVDROM drives available in 2006-2007 could do 8x DVD max. So the HD DVDROM drives would be too slow for 360 games, it would not be able to keep up with asset streaming and whatnot (you'd have missing textures etc as the drive can't keep up with the gameplay).

Quote:
If Blu Ray wins (and honestly they both are so similar that I cannot appreciate the difference to any great extent unless I was a video and audiophile), do you think an add on Blu Ray player would be produced by Microsoft? To me, it would be feeding Sony's bottom line and I do not perceive that happening. BTW, I own both formats.
Probably not. Releasing HD DVD addon was a win for them because it harmed Sony and did not harm MS much. Releasing BD addon would help Sony. I think instead Microsoft will focus on promoting the downloads market. The only time they will add Blu-ray is if they have been able to conclude without doubt that they need it in order to compete with Sony - I simply don't think that is the case, though.
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Old 01-19-08, 11:56 AM   #81
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

Neither the HD-DVD spec nor the BD spec were finalized by the time the 360 hit manufacturing. We can ignore the fact that the BD spec is almost about to be finalized now.
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Old 01-20-08, 12:25 PM   #82
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

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Neither the HD-DVD spec nor the BD spec were finalized by the time the 360 hit manufacturing. We can ignore the fact that the BD spec is almost about to be finalized now.
Right, but I think people are saying why didn't they put HD DVD in the Elite, for instance, when HD DVD had been out for some time. Bottom line is that the HD DVDROM drives even in 2007 were not fast enough to play XBOX 360 games.
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Old 01-20-08, 12:41 PM   #83
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

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Originally Posted by Ruined
Right, but I think people are saying why didn't they put HD DVD in the Elite, for instance, when HD DVD had been out for some time. Bottom line is that the HD DVDROM drives even in 2007 were not fast enough to play XBOX 360 games.
That could be the reason. I wouldn't want to pull out a fast dvd9 drive and replace it with a slower drive. While you likely would get less of a jet engine sound, the load time would increase, and from my first hands-on experience with a ps3, I don't find slower load times very acceptable.
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Old 01-20-08, 01:28 PM   #84
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Default Re: Party's over folks... Universal is not renewing HD-DVD contract

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Originally Posted by Lyme
That could be the reason. I wouldn't want to pull out a fast dvd9 drive and replace it with a slower drive. While you likely would get less of a jet engine sound, the load time would increase, and from my first hands-on experience with a ps3, I don't find slower load times very acceptable.
If it was just load times increasing it wouldn't be an issue.

The issue is that a large chunk of the 360 games use in-game streaming of assets. Meaning that while you are running through the level it is pulling stuff off the DVD in the background. With a drive that is slower than expected, that means you could run into a new area and all of the textures would be missing as they haven't loaded yet. Which would essentially be a disaster in terms of end-user experience.
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