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Old 07-11-08, 09:10 PM   #97
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...8&postcount=31

First reply to you. Not an attack on you

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...7&postcount=49

Second reply to you. Not an attack on you.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...7&postcount=51

3rd reply to you was not an attack on you.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...9&postcount=53

4th reply to you. Not an attack on you.


All 4 of these posts are Simply me reinforcing my point. That all the 512 cards show the exact same thing and problems.


All 3 of these posts were me reinforcing my position that 512 megs of memory is what limited the cards. You both tried to bring ATI into the discussion when I wasnt even discussing ATI to begin with. All of my posts were trying to illustrate how 512 Meg cards couldnt deliver the same consistency as 1 gigabyte cards could. In a perfect world. Every card would have a 512 and 1 gigabyte version of itself. But they dont. Trying to argue that my conclusions are inaccurate because they are not exact same card is complete nonsense.

The 512 meg cards all do the same thing in UT3. They all do the same thing in Crysis. They all do the same thing FEAR. Dropping to levels of performance that are inconsistent with the fillrate changes for AA Z-Fill cycles. This is what I have been trying to illustrate the same time.

No none of these cards are identical. But you can easily draw paralells by how they are supposed to drop off in performance by the way they scale with resolutions.

By my 5th post I am getting annoyed with you.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...6&postcount=71

Right after "you" started flaming "me"

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...2&postcount=70

You flaming me again

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...3&postcount=73

ANd yup. Now I'm mad at you. And since this point you've done nothing but flame me.


http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...5&postcount=74


Cards dont scale linearly with memory in the performance segment. Many have 512, Many have 1 gig. And many offer comparable performance. You know very well I dont have 1 gigabyte versions of the cards and your attempting to draw me into a straw man's argument by bringing up that point. I'm clearly aware that this would be a perfect comparison. But you simply dont need perfect comparisons to draw conclusions about whats going on. Everything I have shown here has been an illustration of how certain settings cause the 512 meg cards ((which can offer similar performance to 1 gig counterparts under specific circumstances)) to fail. Armed with this knowledge people should be able to make better decisions about there hardware. Theres little sense going out and buying 2 9800GTX + cards "Right away" to get GTX 280 performance. Or a 9800GX2. When cards like the 260 exist. IMO the 280 is not the better value that Nvidia offers. The 260 is.


Quote:
Originally, I was stating my desire to see the same comparison you did, with only the same architecture. Since then, you've been attacking me, and I've merely responded. You pulled the same crap on others at Rage3D. You were right to take a vacation, because had you kept going, some people would have pushed for an outright ban. You may be tech savvy, but you're a rude, pompous ass, who considers yourself better than other gamers, for what reasons I cannot fathom.
The only reason I am rude to you is because of comments like this. When you make posts like this I am utterly disgusted with you. My only intention in this thread was to demonstrate how 512 megs on Nvidia hardware do not offer the same level of consistency as 1 gigabyte cards. I "cant" provide 1 gigabyte 98000GTX or 1 2 gigabyte 9800GX2 comparison because such cards dont exist or I dont have them. What I can do is draw up a conclusion based on a consistent pattern of problems with the 512 G92 cards.

Lastly. I dont consider myself better than anyone. Never have I said anything like that. The fact that you seem to think that I am belittling you is a personal issue of yours. Not mine. My intention here was to offer my perspective on multiple Nvidia platforms with regards to 512 megs verses higher levels of memory cards on Nvidia hardware. A perspective I have unique insight too. Not only through my contacts with Nvidia but my extensive testing on the subject. These points are not brought up because most reviewers dont do this or attempt to test these settings.

Personally if one person buys a GTX 260 over a 9800GTX/9800GTX SLI or 9800GX2 card based on the advice given in this thread. I feel I have succeeded. And thats the only thing here I have tried to accomplish. Letting people realize the limitations that the 512 configurations is important because far too often have I seen people come back and tell me things like "I upgraded my 8800GTX to a 9800GX2. But I cant run 16xQ in said game but I could on my 8800GTX". I saw this alot with the 9800GX2 and 9800GTX cards in retrospect to the 8800GTX. Keeping people informed on the subject is the only way prevent them from finding themselves disappointed later. Just because I post something about the GTX 260 or 280., Doesnt mean its some Negative spin against ATI. I typically try my best to avoid discussing ATI if at all possible. Because people dont care what I have to say about ATI hardware. People come to me for advice on Nvidia hardware or ask me questions about it all the time because I have just about every card released from nvidia in reference form since the 7800GTX.

As far as rage3d goes. They can ban me if they like. I am not posting there anymore.
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Old 07-11-08, 09:34 PM   #98
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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All 3 of these posts were me reinforcing my position that 512 megs of memory is what limited the cards. You both tried to bring ATI into the discussion when I wasnt even discussing ATI to begin with.
You need to drop this crybaby routine of yours.

For one, you were referencing "512MB" cards. At no point did you clarify that to include only Nvidia cards, so you are just as much at fault for any "misinterpreting" that may have happened here as any of us.

For another, MikeC had posted just before you referencing the performance of the 4870 with its 512 frame-buffer. So for you to sit there and act like you've been "attacked" unjustly or had ATI injected into the discussion out of nowhere--or whatever this battered-woman-complex you seem to have can derive--is just insanely stupid. We were already discussing ATI when you jumped in.

If you're going to reference the performance of 512M cards in a discussion that already includes ATI, then you can't be offended if someone brings their name up after you post. Honestly.. did you even read the thread before you jumped in, or just the subject line?

Medion is right; this thread was relatively civil until you decided to get a little testy and overdefensive and start throwing bribes at people by making personal judgments about them (like telling me I was trying to "justify" my "512M cards", for example. I'm so glad that you know my personality better than I do.)

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Old 07-11-08, 09:48 PM   #99
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

The only thing that bothers me Xion. Is that I have gone out of my way to explain I wasnt referencing to ATI. I have no vested interest in ATI. I dont use their hardware. And I don't work with their driver team. I tried to explain at the beginning in a civil manner. You guys can talk about ATI all you want.

No. I wasnt as specific as I should have been when I spoke about 512 cards. There was a misunderstanding based on the fact that I wasnt being specific when to the fact I was referencing Nvidia hardware. That was a mistake on my part. I realize that. But after explaining that I was not referring to ATI hardware. You would think that people would stop trying to take it as some negative spin comment on ATI. It wasnt. Never was intended to be.

To answer your question. No I did not read every post up to that point. Threads do derail. But I am not Mike Chambers. Nor am I even affiliated with him. ((No disrespect Mike)). My comments were based on a completely different subject regarding the comparison of Nvidia hardware to other Nvidia platforms. Once I explained that position. I thought that would have been enough.

Thats not saying I havent made my own fair share of mistakes in this thread. Perhaps I was wrong to base my conversation style with you based on previous encounters with you. If I let that jade my interaction with you. Then I do sincerely apologize. But that does mean I'm trying to lecture you, or give you a lesson on anything. When I discuss hardware. I discuss it in a very technical fashion. Using my own experience and test patterns too reinforce or discuss my points. You really should not take that personally. ((You have in the past and thats why I started this conversation jaded with you to begin with)).

Now if I offended you. I am truly sorry. I will be very honest when I say read your first post as questioning my motivations. Which does offend me. And causes me to get defensive. Medion is at least right about that. When I feel I am being attacked I defend myself anymore. Because I get it way too often these days because people read too far into what I say.

Now if I was incorrect that assumption. Once again I am sorry. But like I said. My only intention in this thread was discuss my subjective views on Nvidia's current lineup and pricing. I have little to say about ATI hardware thats of any value. But I hope my insights on Nvidia hardware are valuable to some people so they make the right choice when looking at Nvidia purchase options. I think if you take a little time to see past my affiliation with Nvidia. And look at the work I've done to try and help Nvidia users. I hope you'll see that my intentions truly only motivated to help people with Nvidia hardware. its the reason I administrate and run SLIZONE for Nvidia. Personally. I hope this better explains my position. And we can move beyond any harsh words or feelings we might have said to each other in this thread.

Chris
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Old 07-11-08, 11:52 PM   #100
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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Originally Posted by ChrisRay View Post
The only thing that bothers me Xion. Is that I have gone out of my way to explain I wasnt referencing to ATI.
Not in the beginning. Later on you did, but then, as I showed earlier, you continued to reference ATI when discussing 512M hardware. That's what was confusing. You talked many times like you were including them in your generalization of 512M hardware.

Quote:
I have no vested interest in ATI. I dont use their hardware. And I don't work with their driver team. I tried to explain at the beginning in a civil manner. You guys can talk about ATI all you want.
That's fine. You don't talk about ATI or work with the hardware at all, and that's fine. But I think it's a little irrational if you expect any of us who don't know you on a personal level to be able to make that judgment right off the bat. You and I have crossed paths a couple of times, but I certainly don't know you very well or know that you never spend any of your time testing or researching ATI products (until you've made it clear recently.)

Quote:
To answer your question. No I did not read every post up to that point. Threads do derail. But I am not Mike Chambers. Nor am I even affiliated with him. ((No disrespect Mike)). My comments were based on a completely different subject regarding the comparison of Nvidia hardware to other Nvidia platforms. Once I explained that position. I thought that would have been enough.
Thanks for explaining. Just to clarify: I wasn't inferring that you and Mike were in cahoots together--only that someone had posted about the 4870 just before you did, so with you responding about 512M hardware, it looked as if you may be including ATI in your analysis.

Quote:
I will be very honest when I say read your first post as questioning my motivations. Which does offend me. And causes me to get defensive.
Yeah Chris, but can you really expect anything less? You're an Nvidia user group member and the moderator of SLI Zone. Should it really come as that surprising to you that anyone (possibly me) would believe that you may be a bit biased toward Nvidia when it comes to hardware and thus challenge good things that may be said about an ATI product on occasion?

Now perhaps I jumped the gun on that by misinterpreting your first post (which you already admit was kind of vague, as well), but that is a very careful line that you're trying to walk.

I respect your honest intentions if they truly are that (if so, you are to be commended), but at the same time I don't think it's rational to go about your business and expect most people to take your comments about competing graphics manufacturers at face value when you are heavily affiliated with one of them.

Perhaps you are different than Rollo or some of the other boneheads I have run into out of the "Nvidia Focus Member" group. And perhaps my bad experiences with those individuals slightly tainted my impression of you before it was warranted. If so, then I also apologize.

I do appreciate your insight about graphics architecture, because it is a hobby of mine. And especially your input in regards to multi-gpu solutions since I own one and have in the past.

As for past encounters, I'm just going to let that go. I could debate some of what you said about my previous behavior and the circumstances surrounding it, but I'd rather just let it go and move on.

Peace.
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Old 07-12-08, 12:23 AM   #101
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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Yeah Chris, but can you really expect anything less? You're an Nvidia user group member and the moderator of SLI Zone. Should it really come as that surprising to you that anyone (possibly me) would believe that you may be a bit biased toward Nvidia when it comes to hardware and thus challenge good things that may be said about an ATI product on occasion?
Yes Xion. I do believe that, Which is why I try so hard to avoid ATI discussions. Nothing good ever comes from me commenting on ATI. I wont deny I am biased towards Nvidia. But with my relationship with Nvidia. I try not interact in ATI Verses Nvidia discussion types. And in your replies to me you sent me alot of ATI oriented graphs. I want you to understand I wasnt ignoring you. But I was trying to ignore the ATI discussion to avoid getting into an ATI Verses Nvidia discussion. Because they tend to go no where and due to my close relationship with Nvidia I "am" biased in how I percieve Nvidia verses ATI. Its human nature. Hence why you will always see me trying to steer clear of such a debate.

What I "hope" is that people do look at the work I do, and the time I invest into helping Nvidia users. If you read any of my investigations or analysis. I think you will find that ATI is never mentioned anywhere.

That being said. There are times it really bothers me when I just get accused of "Shilling" when Im not even doing that. I dont mind people disagreeing with me as much as I mind getting accused of lying or shilling. Since you say you were not doing that. I sincerely apologize for my reaction's to your posts. I am aware that AMD exists as an entity and naturally comparisons will occur at times. I'm just very careful about how I approach those comparisons.

I will say this. Its very easy for "Tone" to get lost on the internet. And I misread things. I'm human and make mistakes.


Quote:
Not in the beginning. Later on you did, but then, as I showed earlier, you continued to reference ATI when discussing 512M hardware. That's what was confusing. You talked many times like you were including them in your generalization of 512M hardware.
Your right. This was a mistake on my part. At the time I thought I was being called out. Hence my aggressive attitude. I want you to understand I used to be very very reserved, But lately I've come under alot of fire. And have been showing my teeth more than I'd like. In reaction. And I do apologize for that reaction.

Quote:
Perhaps you are different than Rollo or some of the other boneheads I have run into out of the "Nvidia Focus Member" group. And perhaps my bad experiences with those individuals slightly tainted my impression of you before it was warranted. If so, then I also apologize.
Me and Rollo are friends in a non professional level. ((IE not related to GPUS)). But we are very different people when it comes to approaching things like GPU tech discussions. If you listen to what I am saying I will listen to you. All I ask is that you take a look at some of the things I do. And not judge me by your impressions of Rollo. We are totally different people and disagree on alot of subjects.

Rollo is a very opionated person. For better or for worse. He says whats on his mind. And doesnt let people get to him. Me on the other hand I have a pretty soft exterior and get offended too easily at times. I will be the first to admit its one of my major charactor flaws and its gotten me into trouble more times than I could count.

However if you talk me. Post your opinion. Even if I dont like it. I tend to send it to Nvidia. And let them know what the community is thinking. 3 weeks ago right before I went on vacation. ((I did 4 major investigation/articles while managing SLIZONE )) i blew up on some people. stress levels were at there all time high. Today I may have been more stressed than usual because I just spent the last 30 hours preparing a 9800GTX + investigation with only 24 hour notice from Nvidia. I have been grumpy and testy since then. When the GTX 280 launched. I spent 4 hours one night just perusing forums and preparing a an e-mail which dialogued the way people were seeing their current pricing. Which they had examined by their GPU product teams.

Quote:
Thanks for explaining. Just to clarify: I wasn't inferring that you and Mike were in cahoots together--only that someone had posted about the 4870 just before you did, so with you responding about 512M hardware, it looked as if you may be including ATI in your analysis.
I will try to be more clear in the future ok? That being said. I'm glad we came to an understanding. The last 36 hours has been a stressful time for me preparing my 9800GTX + investigation and looking into the new PhysX drivers. I did not have much time and I had to get it done quickly. I am always at my highest stress levels once I finish a project and it takes me a while to wind down. perhaps I should avoid forums at that point. :P

Quote:
That's fine. You don't talk about ATI or work with the hardware at all, and that's fine. But I think it's a little irrational if you expect any of us who don't know you on a personal level to be able to make that judgment right off the bat. You and I have crossed paths a couple of times, but I certainly don't know you very well or know that you never spend any of your time testing or researching ATI products (until you've made it clear recently.)
Fair enough. I'll try to explain what I do so you can better understand what I am about and my affiliation with Nvidia.

1) I work extensively with their hardware. Over at slizone its become joke to call me "ChrisNewRayEgg" as its been implied I have more Nvidia hardware than newegg. The reason they send me so much stuff is because its required for me to have extensive knowledge and underrstanding of their tech so I can reliably help people troubleshoot their PCs.

2) Every week I fill out a community and driver feedback report to Nvidia based upon bugs and problens that occur on SLIZONE. I document them and let them know what people are doing and if new major withstanding issues are occuring. I've been communicating with Nvidia on the overheating GTX 280 issue recently ((Just an example)) as we try to reproduce it.

3) I also assist with beta drivers ect. Getting issues like rendering problems with age of conan worked out before they make it to reviewers hands ect.

4) I am a HUGE sli enthusiast. And I tend to view almost everything from a multi GPU perspective. It may not be the best perspective for all situations. But it is what I deal with and I am good with it.

I dont make any cash money out of this. I do it because I enjoy it. Yes I do recieve alot of cards. But I have way more than I'll ever need. And I'm lucky to keep 1 gaming config in my system for a week before I am required to swap and switch them out.

Anyway that being said. I hope you now better undestand me and what I was trying to accomplish here. I want people who are interested in multi GPU to make the right choice for SLI gaming or high res gaming. Hence why I like the GTX 260 so much. In my testing in the last 6 months it has infact been my favorite card. Especially with the recent pricing adjustments.

Anyway. Once again I am sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. And I am sorry that mine were misunderstood as well. Going forward I hope we have a better understanding of each other.

Chris
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Old 07-12-08, 12:34 AM   #102
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

Quote:
Yeah Chris, but can you really expect anything less? You're an Nvidia user group member and the moderator of SLI Zone. Should it really come as that surprising to you that anyone (possibly me) would believe that you may be a bit biased toward Nvidia when it comes to hardware and thus challenge good things that may be said about an ATI product on occasion?
Yes Xion. I do believe that, Which is why I try so hard to avoid ATI discussions. Nothing good ever comes from me commenting on ATI. I wont deny I am biased towards Nvidia. But with my relationship with Nvidia. I try not interaction in ATI Verses Nvidia discussion types.

What I "hope" is that people do look at the work I do, and the time I invest into helping Nvidia users. If you read any of my investigations or analysis. I think you will find that ATI is never mentioned anywhere.

That being said. There are times it really bothers me when I just get accused of "Shilling" when Im not even doing that. I dont mind people disagreeing with me as much as I mind getting accused of lying or shilling. Since you say you were not doing that. I sincerely apologize for my reaction's to your posts.

I will say this. Its very easy for "Tone" to get lost on the internet. And I misread things. I'm human and make mistakes.


Quote:
Not in the beginning. Later on you did, but then, as I showed earlier, you continued to reference ATI when discussing 512M hardware. That's what was confusing. You talked many times like you were including them in your generalization of 512M hardware.
Your right. This was a mistake on my part. At the time I thought I was being called out. Hence my aggressive attitude. I want you to understand I used to be very very reserved, But lately I've come under alot of fire. And have been showing my teeth more than I'd like. In reaction. And I do apologize for that reaction.

Quote:
Perhaps you are different than Rollo or some of the other boneheads I have run into out of the "Nvidia Focus Member" group. And perhaps my bad experiences with those individuals slightly tainted my impression of you before it was warranted. If so, then I also apologize.
Me and Rollo are friends in a non professional level. ((IE not related to GPUS)). But we are very different people when it comes to approaching things like GPU tech discussions. If you listen to what I am saying I will listen to you. All I ask is that you take a look at some of the things I do. And not judge me by your impressions of Rollo. We are totally different people and disagree on alot of subjects.

Rollo is a very opionated person. For better or for worse. He says whats on his mind. And doesnt let people get to me. Me on the other hand I have a pretty soft exterior and get offended too easily at times. I will be the first to admit its one of my major charactor flaws and its gotten me into trouble more times than I could count.

However if you talk me. Post your opinion. Even if I dont like it. I tend to send it to Nvidia. And let them know what the community is thinking. 3 weeks ago right before I went on vacation. ((I did 4 major investigation/articles while managing SLIZONE )) i blew up on some people. stress levels were at there all time high. Today I may have been more stressed than usual because I just spent the last 30 hours preparing a 9800GTX + investigation with only 24 hour notice from Nvidia. I have been grumpy and testy since then.

Quote:
hanks for explaining. Just to clarify: I wasn't inferring that you and Mike were in cahoots together--only that someone had posted about the 4870 just before you did, so with you responding about 512M hardware, it looked as if you may be including ATI in your analysis.
I will try to be more clear in the future ok? That being said. I'm glad we came to an understanding. The last 36 hours has been a stressful time for me preparing my 9800GTX + investigation and looking into the new PhysX drivers. I did not have much time and I had to get it done quickly. I am always at my highest stress levels once I finish a project and it takes me a while to wind down. perhaps I should avoid forums at that point. :P

Quote:
That's fine. You don't talk about ATI or work with the hardware at all, and that's fine. But I think it's a little irrational if you expect any of us who don't know you on a personal level to be able to make that judgment right off the bat. You and I have crossed paths a couple of times, but I certainly don't know you very well or know that you never spend any of your time testing or researching ATI products (until you've made it clear recently.)
Fair enough. I'll try to explain what I do so you can better understand what I am about and my affiliation with Nvidia.

1) I work extensively with their hardware. Over at slizone its become joke to call me "ChrisNewRayEgg" as its been implied I have more Nvidia hardware than newegg. The reason they send me so much stuff is because its required for me to have extensive knowledge and underrstanding of their tech so I can reliably help people troubleshoot their PCs.

2) Every week I fill out a community and driver feedback report to Nvidia based upon bugs and problens that occur on SLIZONE. I document them and let them know what people are doing and if new major withstanding issues are occuring. I've been communicating with Nvidia on the overheating GTX 280 issue recently ((Just an example)) as we try to reproduce it.

3) I also assist with beta drivers ect. Getting issues like rendering problems with age of conan worked out before they make it to reviewers hands ect.

I dont make any cash money out of this. I do it because I enjoy it. Yes I do recieve alot of cards. But I have way more than I'll ever need. And I'm lucky to keep 1 gaming config in ny system for a week before I am required to swap and switch them out.

Anyway that being said. I hope you now better undestand me and what I was trying to accomplish here. I want people who are interested in multi GPU to make the right choice for SLI gaming or high res gaming. Hence why I like the GTX 260 so much. In my testing in the last 6 months it has infact been my favorite card. Especially with the recent pricing adjustments.

Anyway. Once again I am sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. And I am sorry that mine were misunderstood as well. Going forward I hope we have a better understanding of each other.

Chris
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Old 07-12-08, 12:40 AM   #103
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

I must say there is a lot of side effects to good competition.
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Old 07-12-08, 01:14 AM   #104
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

Thanks for the detailed post, Chris. You seem like an alright guy with good intentions. I found the little bit of insight you offered in regards to your work with Nvidia interesting and wish you well with it in the future.

I do have one observation. For someone who tries to avoid ATI discussion, you sure hung out at Rage3D a lot in the past. I guess a lot of Nvidia guys do hang out there, though.

I do think the GTX260 is a great value for the money. Lots of VRAM/bus on a card that's a good OC'er. I think the problem with that card is that it needs to be priced a little lower since it's outperformed by the 4870 so often, and since the 4870 sometimes scales up to the level of the 280 for a lot less money. Even if it were only 30-40$ I think it would make a difference. People look at both cards right now and see the high ceiling that the 4870 has in comparison at the same price range.

It is a great card though and a great value, but it sits in an unfortunate price bracket right now.
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Old 07-12-08, 11:00 AM   #105
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

Before I immerse myself in a game this weekend and never come back for air. I have been a member of rage3d for as long as I have been a member of nvnews. When I first signed up for nvnews I had an ATI card. I mostly hung out in the general graphics and rumor sections of rage3d.

Chris
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Old 07-14-08, 01:59 PM   #106
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=12360

NVIDIA Takes ATI to the Mattresses with Lower Pricing

Quote:
The new $499 price point for the GeForce GTX 280 should be very close to expected MSRP for the HD 4870 X2. Early numbers are in for the Radeon HD 4870 X2 and it compares quite favorably to the GeForce GTX 280.

NVIDIA’s GeForce GTX 260 was the subject of considerable amounts of ire from reviewers and enthusiasts when the Radeon HD 4870 was found to perform very similarly for significantly less money.
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