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Old 07-31-08, 07:54 AM   #13
energyman76b
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

opening the 'non tainted' parts isn't easy. That is why AMD still hasn't released full specs - and never will. Some stuff can't be opened up. The devs working on it are in constant contact with lawyers discussion what can be put into the wild and which parts can't. It is not that easy. Nvidia is concentrating on their driver development. Their choice and from their POV the right choice. Don't forget - they don't have that many devs and somehow the guys working on opening the specs would have to be paid too. It is pretty much a legal minefield. Nvidia does not see a situation where possible profits are worth the risk. And who can blame them in todays litigatious environment?

Nvidia does a good job. But I was not willing to wait any longer - and the current situation was not good for me. That was my choice. Everybody can choose based on his/her/its situation. Nvidia, me, you. Freedom of choice. Nice to have.
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Old 07-31-08, 08:13 AM   #14
supertin
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by _john_i_ View Post
I've had mine for 8 months now, and still have no real resolution to the performance problems.
I've had my latest card for about the same amount of time... Still getting hard lock with the nvidia driver.
I've tried 32 and 64 bit, multiple kernels, clocked my CPU/RAM/etc back to defaults, about 6 different versions of the drivers, checked for BIOS updates for the mobo and video card... It's not like I'm not trying to make it work.
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Old 07-31-08, 10:41 AM   #15
logan
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

I paid $275 for an 8800GT in February and spent nearly every day of the week, for the next 4 months, troubleshooting system instability and performance. In early June, I shelved the card in favor of a year and a half old 7900GS. So much for my top of the line gaming rig, but at least it works... In the last two months, my 8800GT has lost nearly 2/3rds of it's value. By the time the drivers are up to spec, it will also be a year and a half old and I'll need to buy something new.

Is that something to celebrate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tilseboy View Post
Please stop that bashing...
No.

Quote:
If AaronP writes something you are talking to people, not to a company.
Quote:
You are talking with people.
Who are employed by a company I've purchased goods from. It's business.

Quote:
I think nobody is having fun in the current situation so nobody have to tell the same *** over and over again.
No one else need voice their concerns?

Quote:
So just try to figure out what the problem is instead of this "crappy driver" posts.
The problem is the "crappy driver". How are we supposed to investigate and fix closed source IP?

Quote:
If you don't need it, buy another one (and bash ATI at phoronix :-P ).
Where is this money going to come from? I just spent $415 on NVIDIA hardware in the last 6 months, draining the available funds allocated for my computer. Unless they're going to buy it all back from me, I have no choice but to stay with what I have, for now.

I've read many threads about ATI at Phoronix, good and bad, and I'm game.
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Old 07-31-08, 10:46 AM   #16
energyman76b
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

yes, AaronP is employed by nvidia. But this is not an offical nvidia board and AaronP&Zander are certainly the wrong people to attack&bash. If you have to went frustration, sent your mails to NVIDIA.
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Old 07-31-08, 11:11 AM   #17
Henning Rogge
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

A first step would be a real support forum and an open bugtracker.
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Old 07-31-08, 11:15 AM   #18
logan
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b View Post
yes, AaronP is employed by nvidia. But this is not an offical nvidia board and AaronP&Zander are certainly the wrong people to attack&bash.
They're not here in an unofficial capacity either, and the bashing is against the NVIDIA Corporation. Show me the posts where people personally attack Zander, AaronP, or any other NVIDIA employees.
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Old 07-31-08, 02:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pe1chl View Post
I always wonder why you don't sell your nvidia card, buy an AMD/ATI card and have that very great driver and those open specifications that satisfy you so much...
Then you don't need to complain here all the time. So much better for you!

I agree with the thread subject. We all know the current situation, we all have heard how much greener the grass is in the other camp, but there is no need to bash nvidia and its employees about this all the time.
My next card will be Ati. I will complain, because I paid for this crap...
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Old 07-31-08, 05:27 PM   #20
ollebull
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

I agree pretty much with what logan wrote earlier... If my laptops value was the same as when I bought it I would sell it any second and by another one, but unfortunately that is not the truth, the value is more like 1/2 of the price I paid for it when new.

And I think we should keep complaining and encourage people to show that they are not satisfied with the current driver. What other way could we show Nvidia that we are a market to be aware of, and what other way could we affect how the driver works - it's closed source?
And I think that I speak for most of the users showing there opinion in this matter when I say that the aim of the complaints are towards Nvidia, not the developers in this forum.

I don't know if the ATI driver is better then the Nvidia driver in any way... BUT! I can for my self see that the their drivers is upcoming, in diffrence from the Nvidia driver where all I know since I bought my computer is "we have improvments on the way for future releases".

I hope that people will keep reacting and not be satisfied with less then a good driver. I won't.
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Old 08-02-08, 11:58 AM   #21
TheBlackCat
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

For me at least, the problem isn't so much the driver issues. My problems are threefold:

1. Failure to acknowledge that a problem exists and refusal to take responsibility for it. It took Nvidia 6 months to admit the issue even existed. We saw this again with the hardware problems in the 84 and 86 cards.
2. Speed of response: It has been 8 months since the problems were discovered, 2 months since they have been acknowledge. It has been 14 months since randr 1.2 came out and support was promised by nvidia.
3. Failure to communicate. Now that Nvidia has acknowledged the problem, their answer is "we are working on it". That is not very informative. When can we expect a fix? Tomorrow? Next month? Next year? Will this fix all the problems or only lessen them? Are the KDE 4.1/Firefox 3 fixes going to be included in older cards or are they out of luck? For randr 1.2 there has been no word whatsoever in over a year.

This is a consistent problem. There is no public bug reporting mechanism, so there is no way for us to tell whether bugs that have been submitted are being fixed. There is no release schedule so we know roughly when we can expect what features. We don't even know when new beta drivers, not to mention stable drivers, will be released.

I have no problem with bugs and no problem with mistakes, assuming they are fixed in a reasonably timely manner. My problem is that I have no clue what is happening or when it will happen because nvidia doesn't bother telling us this. In my opinion a lot of the bashing is based on a lack of knowledge, a lack of knowledge about what caused the problem, what is required to fix it, and when it will happen. I think if people understood what is going on, had some expectation about when it would be fixed and to what degree, we would be seeing considerably less hostility (not zero hostility, but less). But when the only people talking are the ones with a problem, and the people with the solutions stay completely silent, then all anyone sees is problems and that probably makes things look worse than they really are. As the old cliche says, knowledge is power. And people get very uncomfortable when they feel powerless.
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Old 08-03-08, 04:22 PM   #22
Sasha_A
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tzp View Post
I agree with the spirit of the thread's title.....
  • In many cases the problems of the latest driver version or application SW don't exist with the earlier versions. So we, users might switch back to an older but working version if we don't need the functionality in the latest one. (e.g. I still use KDE 3.5 and I don't have those complaints that KDE 4 users do. I'll wait for KDE 4 to become more mature before and give time to Nvidia to sort out performance problems before upgrading my SW. Honestly, I can do everyting I need with my current SW.)
    I'm not saying that we should not need the new drivers sooner or later but at least it's possible to live with the old stuff as a workaround.
I agree with the thread title, and the above quote too, and also have a thought or two to add:

As with anything, be it a car, a computer, a house, or software, if it is relatively new, there are bound to be some issues.

Now in context, we have all these people who seem bent on running the newest <bleeding-edge> versions of software, on a Release-Candidate kernel which you know is not officially supported by the nvidia drivers anyway, combined with shiny new hardware that hit the shelf yesterday, and voila! Issues arise!

So ya got a video card that cost you <blah> amount of dollars, you "need" for some reason to run the KDE 4.x.RCx that was maybe just released last night and is loaded with bugs, and as mentioned, maybe a release candidate kernel. Why not back off a bit: use a STABLE kernel that wasn't RC'd yesterday, use the driver version that works best on your hardware, and watch the forum to see if/when an upgrade would be appropriate!

Surely it won't kill you if your game has a few less FPS than Jones next door. And that's another thing-- games! Games, games, games.. Save yourself the pain and stress, and the money you seem to like spending on hardware to play games, and buy an Xbox, or a SNES, or a PSx, or whatever is the newest fangled game-playing machine, and sit back and enjoy! Even the not-so-new game machines these days can browse the internet and use a hard-drive.

FWIW, I use KDE 3.5.4. It does everything a DE should do, and even is still full of bugs just like the new KDE. The thing is though, I have gotten used to its bugs and I can work around them for the most part. I use 2.6.26 and have since it came out, without issue. At the time, the newest nvidia driver I had that I was using, did not work with 2.6.26, so I kept using the previous release.Whooopie, big deal. A few weeks later, presto! A new driver that DID work, and it worked just as well as any other I have ever used.
Currently I use the latest driver without any issues. Sure, I update because I can, but when the newest update flops, it's no big deal to revert for a while. In fact, I would prolly not even notice if someone installed 169.xx on me overnight, because I run a stable kernel, don't play games on my PC, and don't depend on software released last night. I commend nvidia for allowing me the pleasure of having 2 $60.00 videocards & 4 monitors running seamlessly in Linux; GLXgears shows 2800 or so FPS-- SO WHAT?

On a related note, as an example: computer BIOS has been around for 20 years or so, as has Linux. But you know, the motherboard makers and the BIOS makers don't provide us with flash tools to use from within Linux; only DOS/Windows tools. So, we continue to boot into DOS to do BIOS work. This sucks, but I doubt anyone's bashing BIOS makers over it (and if they are, they're doing it quietly and it isn't working). We deal with it. So can one realistically expect something BRAND NEW to be perfectly, instantly, and fully supported under Linux, while M$ has their monopolistic death-grip on both hardware AND software vendors? No. If you want that instant gratification, and 1000's of FPS in some game, Linux isn't for you. You need to use an OS that has had hardware vendors jammed up its A$$ and its grubby mitts in everyones business for at least a decade or more.

This is just my two cents; I guess as a satisfied customer for many years now, my opinion differs from that of many who frequent this forum. Maybe there should be a separate "Nvidia Linux" forum, where people who are happy with their nvidia situation can talk about it, and politely thank nvidia for their hard work. I bet the nvidia personnel would appreciate the change of pace and tone when they visited that place.
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Old 08-03-08, 04:30 PM   #23
energyman76b
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

if only the beta or rc would be affected, fine. But 4.1 final is too.

And it is not a new issue. The problem is known for how long? 6 month? And nothing happened. And it is not the latest hardware that is affected. It is the midrange 8XXX and 9xxx series. Some people would like to use their cards the way THEY want before the 8xxx series bug kills it. I am not talking about rc kernel or sick xen stuff. 4.1 is final. The bug is known for a long time. Nvidia did release no driver so far that solved the issue.

So customers are really the last ones to blame. Nvidia is to blame - but please keep the tone honest.
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Old 08-03-08, 05:14 PM   #24
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Default Re: Please stop that bashing...

I have been buying Nvidia cards exclusively for use in Linux since my first Nvidia card which was a TNT2. I have not bought another brand of card since because of the quality Linux drivers Nvidia provided. With my latest card (8800 GTS) I am really disappointed. 2D performance is terrible. When I first got this card 3D performed so much better (it is a non-G92 so the <100.XX drivers worked with it.) The 3D performance has been drastically reduced with any recent drivers. My brother has a 7600GT AGP card and UT2k4 plays so smoothly with the exact same settings I use which is ridiculous considering his system doesn't hold a candle to mine. It is getting frustrating waiting for Nvidia to get its act together because this has been going on for way way too long. I have been paying top dollar for the best Nvidia cards (my 8800 GTS was up there when I bought it) for years due to their fantastic Linux support but that is just not happening right now.

I don't come on here to bash but I won't be singing Nvidia's praises again until they get their act back together. AMD/ATI have made some really good choices recently that are quickly improving the quality of their drivers. They may have already surpassed Nvidia in desktop/multimedia purposes but in gaming they still have a ways to go. ATI could very well move ahead of Nvidia when it comes to Linux support and if that happens any Linux gamer would have to consider the possibility of a switch.
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