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Old 09-28-08, 09:10 AM   #49
Madyasiwi
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68
Absolute nonsense. Can you give us some source about your accusation or is it just in your head?
Some links please and don't waste time with forum post like yours, some people have no problem to repeat it.
You are welcome to disagree with me as much as others are welcome to repeat anything I post as they see it fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68
For example about this conspiracy ; "ATI successfully manage to lobby MS to include in DX 10.1 some features which they are better prepared to implement than NVidia. DirectX is Microsoft's proprietary, so nothing can stop them from giving one IHV a favor over another." I wonder why we didn't hear NVIVIDIA or the game developers screaming murder about it?
Who would care if NV did? It is Microsoft's proprietary API after all. NV could just take it or leave it. It has happened before with early DX 9 fiasco. When NV had anticipated the specs with 32 and 16 bit FP precision hardware, Microsoft and ATI silently agreed on 24 bit FP precision specs for their advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68
AMD/ATI is first to support new extensions for OpenGL 3.0 with official drivers.
Quote:
ATI have released new drivers for their Radeon products, bringing the first shot at OpenGL 3.0 support since the Khronos Group took the lid off the new standard at SIGGRAPH recently.
LINK or Google for more.
It's too late now as OpenGL is almost completely no longer relevant. Where were they in the last 5-6 years? Besides there is no point of being the first to deliver OpenGL 3 driver when it is incomplete and buggy as usual. Just look at the comments in the page you had pointed out; aren't they talk about bug in that driver already? LoL.
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Old 09-28-08, 09:33 AM   #50
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

@Madyasiwi
You just keep repeating the same nonsense about MS and ATI DX10.1 conspiracy without any documentation which I asked you to provide. So sure I don't believe you.
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Old 09-28-08, 09:41 AM   #51
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68 View Post
First my reply was not about "gstanford" post I didn't even read it. But since you said he was correct how does this sound for correct?
What I was agreeing with is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gstanford View Post
To be quite blunt about it, ATi and their "more ardent" supporters are the ones trying to whip up a DX10.1 frenzy on the internet, not microsoft or anyone else. I think they will be as successful as they were with DX8.1 in DX8's lifetime however...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68 View Post
What is pathetic is your reply to my post which was addressed towards 'Mayasiwi". Did you at least read it?
Before replying for him.
Orly? I wasn't aware that the new rule on forums is to "only reply to posts addressed at you specifically". Seems to me you've addressed several at me without me addressing you, are you pathetic as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68 View Post
Actually you included only one point from my reply and I said "first official driver" about the OpenGL and the only reason I included it was Madyasiwi post.
I trhink we can drop the "OpenGL first" aspect of this thread, as it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68 View Post
Anyway let me say it one more time this thread is about:
"Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/280?"
I guess it's a pointless thread then because it's not like any one but the design team at NVIDIA can answer that. It's also a moot point because they did, so their reasons are irrelevant.

The only thing that really is relevant is there are no DX10.1 games, upcoming support looks scarce, and for some reason ATi fanboys seem to like to yell about DX10.1. (which currently has exactly as much use as trout in streams have for spacecraft)

[quote=Heinz68;1790814]
The DX10.1 is very much part of the "PC Gaming Alliance" (TheTechReport) which NViDIA recently signed. The Ageia PhysX, CUDA or the 3d glasses you say are more important is not part of it but you always bring it up, doesn't matter what the thread is about.[/b]

Since you seem to like to speak for the PC Gaming Alliance, please show uswhere DX10.1 is "very much a part" of it:

http://www.pcgamingalliance.org/en/index.asp



Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68 View Post
Well even your above undocumented accusation was true what connection it has with DX10.1?
The point was ATi has implemented many features NVIDIA did not over the years (E.G. Truform) that never became the industry standard. Their decision to include DX10.1 does not mean including DX10.1 is a good or relevant choice. Time will tell if NVIDIA's decision was good or not, so far it looks like they made the right choice as devs don't seem to care about DX10.1 much at all.
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Old 09-28-08, 10:34 AM   #52
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

Quote:
OFFICIAL NVIDIA ANSWER

Ken Brown "We aren't in the business of stifling innovation - it's ludicrous to assume otherwise. Remember that we were the first to bring DirectX 10 hardware to the market and we invested hundreds of millions of dollars on tools, engineers and support for developers in order to get DirectX 10 games out as quickly as possible." Which, we have to point out, isn't exactly an outright denial - since Nvidia has always called 10.1 something of a non-innovation.

NVIDIA said they will not release DX10.1 graphics and they will release DX11 graphics directly.

Microsoft possible to release DX11 API in next year and NVIDIA has so called TWIMTBP plan and most of its game cooperators will not support DX10.1.

The NVIDIA 55nm GTX280 just support DX10 and its next generation flagship product will support DX11 directly. ATI next generation product R8xx will support DX11 and it will come in 2009.
FROM THE OTHER HAND

Quote:
Nvidia expected to offer DirectX 10.1 GPU in Q1 2009

Chicago (IL) – Nvidia so far declined to provide any information if and when the company will consider to support the DirectX 10.1 API in its GPUs, a technology that is integrated in AMD’s Radeon cards for some time now. Roadmap information we stumbled across today offers a bit more clarity and suggests that the company’s next-generation desktop and notebook chips will support DirectX 10.1.

DirectX 10.1 has been a confusing story for most of us, with no clear indication which graphics card you should buy to be able to get access to the best feature set. ATI Radeon cards as well as S3 have been supporting DirectX 10.1 for a while now, but Nvidia remains silent about its future API plans – leaving the gaming market and its customers in uncertainty.

A presentation slide we received, but unfortunately cannot share with you in order to protect our source, clearly states that Nvidia will offer DirectX 10.1 support with its next-generation notebook GPUs that are scheduled for a spring 2009 release. DirectX 10.1 is also likely to be offered in the next desktop GPU generation, which should debut either late in Q4 2008 or Q1 2009, with a possible ramp throughout Q1 and Q2 of 2009.

So, what does that mean? Well, it depends on your view.

What we know for sure is that with Nvidia’s decision to support DX10.1, the industry will be embracing this API.

On the very high end, it may mean that you should think twice about spending $500 or more on a DX10.0 card. DX10.1 cards may be the better value proposition, if you want to run the latest games and don’t want to buy another $500 card six months from now. Nvidia’s new GPU generation, we hear, will also be 1.5 to 2 times faster than the current technology.

This decision may also have some implications for AMD. Realistically, AMD has a six-month advantage over Nvidia in terms of API support right now and also appears to have competitive hardware in place as well. If AMD plays this game smart, it should be able to regain market share, as the 4800 series may be the more attractive technology for computer graphics at this time – at least for those of us with a limited budget.

Oh, and we almost forgot: Nvidia will also switch to GDDR5 memory, most likely within 2008. As GDDR5 chips are more available, we expect first Nvidia GDDR5 cards to hit the market in Q4.
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Old 09-28-08, 11:34 AM   #53
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

not worth it
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Old 09-28-08, 12:01 PM   #54
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

Honestly I think PhysX has more potential than DX10.1, stuff like particle based fluid effects and cloth tearing is something that has never been done well in any major game to date. IMO I think that is where the focus should be.

If you play any of the tech demos for PhysX over the years, is is really unfortunate that it never got the developer support, it really can do exciting things for PC Gaming.
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Old 09-28-08, 04:25 PM   #55
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

From my viewpoint Physic processing and Cuda programming is more important then what 10.1 brings to the table. Unfortunately looks like PhysX and Cuda is only going to be Nvidia Centric, like 10.1 is to ATI. I also believe if hardware PhysX was available in a game which also had a DX10.1 options, that the PhysX version would out perform what DX 10.1 version could give, generally that is. Doesn't 10.1 expose hardware tesselation, which could be used very beneficially in a game and make a extra feature for those with 10.1 cards without any or little performance lost. Plus games on the XBox360 that uses the tesselation hardware could also use that on ATI 10.1 cards.

So there is give and take, presently PhysX has real use, while limited today in hardware. DX10.1 maybe tomorrow.

All said and done, I am leaning towards ATI for my next purchase for totally different reasons .
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Old 09-28-08, 09:17 PM   #56
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

Nvidia would not necessarily lose out on the tesselation front, provided the game was DX compliant and not an unaltered XBOX port.

The geometry shader was added with DX10.0, not DX10.1 and nvidia has geometry shading capabilities. ATi lobbied at the time for geometry shading to be more like that of the XBOX360, microsoft chose to ignore that request.
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Old 09-29-08, 01:20 AM   #57
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

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Originally Posted by noko View Post
Doesn't 10.1 expose hardware tesselation, which could be used very beneficially in a game and make a extra feature for those with 10.1 cards without any or little performance lost.
Dx10.1 doesn't directly expose the hardware tesselation unit on ATi hardware(no caps bits, not in the specs). The capability is accessed using geometry shaders. Tesselation can also be done with geometry shaders on all Dx10.x hardware.

From the specs that's been released about Dx11, hardware tesselation will be included with the specs and all compliant cards will require it.
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Old 09-29-08, 02:05 AM   #58
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

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not worth it
Indeed, SM4.1 support would have needed redesign of ROPs and some other fun things for a speed bump called G2xx, it just would have been too much work and too soon.

With their next architecture in which they actually do big changes they are going for SM5 which includes all SM4.1 changes.
So yes, they will bring a chip with dx10.1 support in 2009, but that's not why we are exited about it.
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Old 09-29-08, 08:10 AM   #59
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post

The only thing that really is relevant is there are no DX10.1 games, upcoming support looks scarce, and for some reason ATi fanboys seem to like to yell about DX10.1. (which currently has exactly as much use as trout in streams have for spacecraft)

You like going round and round in circles much? Must it be pounded into your head over and over again that the reason for the lack of DX10.1 titles is due to Nvidias over all influence on Devs? Dont even try to deny that, even you should know better.

I can assure you that if Nvidia had adopted DX10.1 like ATI we would all be benefiting from increased performance.
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Old 09-29-08, 01:51 PM   #60
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Default Re: Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/

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You truly are missing the point. That quote says absolutely diddly squat about anything other than the fact that ATI's latest hardware is DX10.1 compliant, and that they were the first to bring DX10.1 to market, and MSFT's guy acknowledges that. So what?
No, it's you who is missing the point, and I'll tell you why. It's because you're so damn hypersensitive about your hardware that you cannot correctly comprehend the points I am making.

First off, not once in this thread have I ever claimed that Dx10.1 would gain any sort of significant traction. Trace back my posts to #18 where I explicitly say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion
Meanwhile, we all could've been enjoying a glimpse of what it will offer with DX10.1 in a plethora of games had Nvidia implemented it into their hardware already since their influence on developers is substantial. There are a few teams working with ATI on its implementation at the moment, but that group could've been much larger with support from both vendors.
Obviously, I am expressing my displeasure with Nvidia's lag of implentation because DX10.1 will not gain significant traction without it.

With that said, I'm going to ask this as nicely as I possibly can, given that this is now the 3rd time I'm having to walk you through a simple reading comprehension exercise.

Have you ever passed an English course?

Read the Global Director's quote again; it's the same individual speaking:

Quote:
We welcome AMD’s broad support for DirectX 10.1 compliant hardware and we’re pleased to see our newest technology brought to market so soon. One of the great advantages of PC gaming is the rapid pace at which the experiences evolve and improve. The ATI Radeon HD 3000 series and now the ATI Radeon HD 4800 series hardware delivers on the promise of DirectX 10 gaming with significantly improved visuals and enhanced performance,” said Kevin Unangst, Global Director, Microsoft Games for Windows.
So his seguay, in the same paragraph, into the "improved visuals and enhanced performance" was the discussion of DX10.1. It's plain to see that DX10.1 was the context of the discussion.

Quote:
What does that sentence have anything to do with game developers supporting it?
I don't know, Mr. Straw Man, why don't you tell me since this is your argument and not mine? I was simply responding to your statement that:

Where does the guy from MSFT say anything about DX10.1? He only talks generically about DX10 and the ATI cards.

Which was entirely untrue. He did mention 10.1, and he emphasized the improved visuals and performance that it brings to the table. That much is abundantly clear.

Quote:
Next time, don't throw around random quotes that don't really do anything to bolster your argument.
Next time, learn how to read. If you would only do so and drop your overdefensive stance, then I think you would see that the quotes I bring forth do pertain to any argument at hand.

Quote:
To state or even imply that DX10.1 is going to gain any traction is simply pure nonsense.
See above. I never said that DX10.1 would gain any sort of meaningful traction. The only thing I did was counter Rollo's inaccurate statement that there were absolutely no games that supported it that were on the radar. But you won't find me saying anywhere on this thread that DX10.1 will gain traction. I say that it COULD gain traction if Nvidia had supported it. In fact, I go out of my way to blame Nvidia for not adopting it BECAUSE it will not gain significant traction without their support.

How the hell you miss that is beyond me. I believe that if you would drop that hypersensitive stance of yours that you would probably be able to comprehend the points I'm trying to make instead of making up arguments for me at your leisure and blasting back.

And again, I offer the question to you or others why it is that you believe that DX10.1 is not a route worth taking if, by the comments of developers themselves and the API architects, it brings significant visual and performance enhancements?
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