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Old 11-19-08, 03:03 PM   #61
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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Originally Posted by AlphaWolf_HK View Post
Hmm I dunno. Even at 70 before xpac came out, I was still ganking arcane mages. They do a lot of damage but they aren't unkillable. In fact I have killed a few in 3 seconds. And I have many ways of stopping the damage they deal too.

But actually at level 80 the amount of HP you have increases massively, and the damage doesn't. So either way, what you are saying wouldn't apply. (I heard a figure of roughly 200% more HP but 30% more damage when everybody is fully geared.)

I can personally attest to this somewhat. At level 70 I had about 11k hp unbuffed in caster form. At 80 its now 16k. And this is with level 70 season 4 gear. Imagine what level 80 gear will do, which has a ton more stamina relative to other stats than level 70 gear does.
That's the counter. If you can catch them then they're dead. A good arcane mage though, knows how to stay mobile.

And yes, health will double at 80, but Arcane hits pretty ****ing hard at 80. An arcane mage will have enough talent points to unlock the AP+PoM+Pyro (which will probably crit due to a talent that ups crit chance after PoM) combo which will ~10k of damage assuming a crit. Combine this with a fireblast and a few arcane barrages, and you're looking at 20k of up front damage. Not many classes can take that much much burst and live to tell about it.

The problem with arcane mages is after you blow your load then "what next?" I tried arcane at 70 because of how OP'd they were, but I switched back to frost because at 80 frost is just going to have more sustainable burst damage. It will also have way more outs and ways to stay alive. It it kind of funny. Some druid tried to gank me at 10% health, and I literally kited him for 5 minutes while I ran back to the alliance base in borean tundra. The guards proceeded to rape him giving him a nice little repair bill.

Also, anytime you badly outgear someone you always have a significant advantage over them.
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Old 11-19-08, 03:08 PM   #62
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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I hate arcane mages,playing some bg's with my newly dinged 70 retri-pala alt that doesnt have much in gear yet,just the Crusader's Scaled Battlegear set with some epic items like the red belt of battle and merciless boots but not much in the way of resiliance ,perhaps 170 or so.They are completely hopeless with 3500 + crits killing me before i can say bubble.I didnt see mages on top of the damage boards before the patch/expansion but last night a mage on our side dealt 350 000 damage in a arathi basin loss,sure he was lv 77 but the #2 damage dealer was lv73 mage for the alliance side.

Seeing more and more of this,as you said you cant stop it,atleast not me because i cant get close enough for judgements/stuns/melee before they kill me.
Dude, even with the nerfs, Ret paladins are still the most ridiculous class in the game right now. I'm not saying mages are weak (we are very strong now), but Ret is still the number one class for PvP. I can't imagine how a mage/other class will manage to beat Ret/Ret or Ret/DK in arenas.

As far as how to counter, learn to bubble quicker. And learn to use Blessing of Freedom when they cast Slow on you. Getting rid of snares will reduce their damage output by 12% as we have a talent that increases damage when you are snared. And if you are 70 running around in greens and blues of course you are going to get killed by a better geared mage. Get some epix.
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Old 11-19-08, 03:32 PM   #63
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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Dude, even with the nerfs, Ret paladins are still the most ridiculous class in the game right now. I'm not saying mages are weak (we are very strong now), but Ret is still the number one class for PvP. I can't imagine how a mage/other class will manage to beat Ret/Ret or Ret/DK in arenas.

As far as how to counter, learn to bubble quicker. And learn to use Blessing of Freedom when they cast Slow on you. Getting rid of snares will reduce their damage output by 12% as we have a talent that increases damage when you are snared. And if you are 70 running around in greens and blues of course you are going to get killed by a better geared mage. Get some epix.
Rets maybe OP but my shadow priest and my buddy's lock can eat a ret up in a couple of seconds. It isn't even funny how fast we dispense with pallies. Pallies won't even bubble around us any more because they know the bubble is gone and they are silenced and rezzing at the GY. Yes it does take two of us but ret pallies mostly run around alone full of confidence because of their power so coming up against us is the wrong thing to do.

If I am caught by my self against a ret pally, I just stop and wait to rez.
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Old 11-19-08, 03:44 PM   #64
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

rofl 2 of any class will beat 1 ret pally.
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Old 11-19-08, 03:56 PM   #65
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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rofl 2 of any class will beat 1 ret pally.
No not 2 of any class. I've seen two feral druids taking for ever to kill a pally. I've also seen pallies take on 10 people and it takes them 2 minutes to kill it.

Yeah it is sad that it takes two but as I said, the pally literally lasts 10 seconds or so. It is just a slaughter. The synergy between a lock and shadow priest is just scary.

I like the way you missed the point of my post. The Captn Salutes you.
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Old 11-19-08, 09:30 PM   #66
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mana burn = useless ret pally
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Old 11-19-08, 11:01 PM   #67
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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That's the counter. If you can catch them then they're dead. A good arcane mage though, knows how to stay mobile.
It's hard to stay mobile against a feral druid, for any class, let alone mages. When he does a frost nova/blink, I can powershift/charge. My charge is on the same cooldown as his blink so I can always do it in response to his blink, furthermore unlike rogue kidney shot, he cannot blink out of my maim. He cannot outrun me, it isn't even possible. I have a permanent +50% movement speed in cat form, and dash does +98% movement speed. Infected wounds will always keep him at -50% movement speed, namely because it is always refreshed every time I hit mangle or shred, and likewise his pvp trinket won't help much here. Feral druids are the one class/spec in the game that absolutely cannot be kited.

And it is going to get even better too, blizzard has announced that they are going to implement a change to an existing feral talent that will reduce the cost of shapeshifting by 50%, which will stack with natural shapeshifter to reduce it by 80%. You'll be looking at a mana cost of about 200 for me to shapeshift at level 80, and shapeshifting breaks anything you can drop on me, including slow.

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Originally Posted by Zelda_fan View Post
And yes, health will double at 80, but Arcane hits pretty ****ing hard at 80. An arcane mage will have enough talent points to unlock the AP+PoM+Pyro (which will probably crit due to a talent that ups crit chance after PoM) combo which will ~10k of damage assuming a crit. Combine this with a fireblast and a few arcane barrages, and you're looking at 20k of up front damage. Not many classes can take that much much burst and live to tell about it.
I can And believe me, I've seen it already.
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Old 11-20-08, 02:37 AM   #68
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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Originally Posted by AlphaWolf_HK View Post
It's hard to stay mobile against a feral druid, for any class, let alone mages. When he does a frost nova/blink, I can powershift/charge. My charge is on the same cooldown as his blink so I can always do it in response to his blink, furthermore unlike rogue kidney shot, he cannot blink out of my maim. He cannot outrun me, it isn't even possible. I have a permanent +50% movement speed in cat form, and dash does +98% movement speed. Infected wounds will always keep him at -50% movement speed, namely because it is always refreshed every time I hit mangle or shred, and likewise his pvp trinket won't help much here. Feral druids are the one class/spec in the game that absolutely cannot be kited.

And it is going to get even better too, blizzard has announced that they are going to implement a change to an existing feral talent that will reduce the cost of shapeshifting by 50%, which will stack with natural shapeshifter to reduce it by 80%. You'll be looking at a mana cost of about 200 for me to shapeshift at level 80, and shapeshifting breaks anything you can drop on me, including slow.



I can And believe me, I've seen it already.
That's why I'm frost at the moment not arcane.

sort of innaccurate info in your post. First of all in cat form your charge is on a 30 second cooldown. That means I get to blink 2x for every charge you do. And only an idiot mage would ever Nova+Blink. Every time I see you in a Nova I'll be setting up a shatter combo. I save blink for when you get me in a stun. If you manage to break the nova, I'll put you in another one. To be any threat to me as a mage you need to be in cat form. Constantly shapeshifting out of my kites (which are nearly unlimited as a frost mage) means you aren't gonna be able to damage me much, and I have a TON of kites - Deep Freeze, Frost Nova, Ice Armor debuff , Rank 1 frost bolt, Pet Nova, Ice Barrier Nova, Cone of Cold, etc. Heal and I'll counterspell, etc.

I'll admit, in BC you guys owned us, but now we just have too many novas and snares. Eventually we're gonna catch you in one, and it's gonna be painful when we do. We also have a lot of damage mitigation (Ice Barrier absorbs like 5k damage with good gear at 80). Also consider we have a pet hitting you for ~700 every 2 seconds, and there really isn't much you can do about it.
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Old 11-20-08, 10:18 AM   #69
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

alpha you are overlooking the nonexistent mana pool a feral has. Even if all you do is shift, you will OOM on trying to shift out of every kite a mage could use.


Now with the right gear and some luck a mage is still screwed if you get the jump on them.
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Old 11-20-08, 10:26 AM   #70
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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Originally Posted by Zelda_fan View Post
That's why I'm frost at the moment not arcane.

sort of innaccurate info in your post. First of all in cat form your charge is on a 30 second cooldown.
No, it's accurate. This, along with the fact that it doesn't include a hard root, is why I don't use that for pvp. I always use bear charge. Besides, even if I did use cat charge, I can always go bear and take advantage of the fact that it will never be a cd longer than 15 sec.

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Every time I see you in a Nova I'll be setting up a shatter combo. I save blink for when you get me in a stun. If you manage to break the nova, I'll put you in another one.
And I'll break both of them. Hell you could put me in a third, fourth, or even fifth one and I'll break them too But to be honest I really won't need that many.

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To be any threat to me as a mage you need to be in cat form. Constantly shapeshifting out of my kites (which are nearly unlimited as a frost mage) means you aren't gonna be able to damage me much,
Actually no. The changes to cat form make your energy static now. Your energy always charges regardless whether you are in cat form or not, and the furor talent determines how much of your energy you keep (up to 100, which all ferals will have.) So shapeshifting no longer reduces the amount of damage you'll do, save for the global cooldown, but cat forms global cooldown is 1 second, which is shorter than a mages 1.5 second.

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I'll admit, in BC you guys owned us, but now we just have too many novas and snares. Eventually we're gonna catch you in one, and it's gonna be painful when we do. We also have a lot of damage mitigation (Ice Barrier absorbs like 5k damage with good gear at 80). Also consider we have a pet hitting you for ~700 every 2 seconds, and there really isn't much you can do about it.
The only one that would concern me at all is deep freeze, but all that means is now I have a reason to use my pvp trinket while fighting a mage. Throughout the entire fight you will not be moving fast enough that I can actually ignore most of your slows/frostbolts/etc anyways. The only thing I need to actively break is the novas to avoid the shatter, which is easily done.
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Old 11-20-08, 10:29 AM   #71
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Default Re: Wrath of the Lich King!

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alpha you are overlooking the nonexistent mana pool a feral has. Even if all you do is shift, you will OOM on trying to shift out of every kite a mage could use.
This will actually be fixed very soon so that ferals can shift a lot more:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...&pageNo=14#262

There was also a later post about them fitting this into an existing talent, but I can't find it via google.

Right now I could get about 11 shifts in before going OOM though (I still have int on my gear,) but I really don't need that many. Not only that but the mana regen penalty while shapeshifted has already been removed.
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Old 11-20-08, 12:50 PM   #72
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The more I play the expansion the more I like it. I am taking my time. I want to level slowly and see every thing. This cuts down on the long grind that wears the game out.

My warrior is still lvl 70 but almost 71. We got side tracked with some world PVP for 2 hours. I love that stuff.

My DK is still 64. I was trying out the different trees. I like the blood tree because of the non-stop killing but I am staying unholy because it is the same pace but it is more suitable to my playing style.
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