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Old 01-09-09, 11:27 AM   #25
zim2dive
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

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Originally Posted by pataphysician View Post
This has no effect for me, performance and cpu % are the same either way, both in firefox and Opera.

Are you using a 8300/8200 ?

Also, I'm running 64 bit Ubuntu with the 64 bit flash alpha release. I had the 32 bit flash with wrapper earlier and it didn't perform any differently with 173 177 or 180 than 64 bit flash, I believe I tried unselecting hardware acceleration under 32 bit flash with no effect also.
I tried in both 32-bit and 64-bit.. neither showing an improvement.

I did not try Opera for more than 3 minutes (a few weeks ago), but the 3 minutes I gave it did not show any improvement for me on my 8200, but I can give it more of a try.

I also tried every flash 9/10/gnash plugin I could find. Again, no magic bullet.

There may be many contributing factors (Flash, Firefox, whatever)

BUT...the one VERY conclusive change I made to improve performance was to roll back to 173. I think that provides a VERY easy corner case for the devs to test.. it works well here, it works badly there.. only one variable, go figure out why. Once that is fixed then we can change out the other variables.. but until the nvidia driver is fixed, none of those other knobs can be turned far enough to make a significant enough difference for the tougher Flash sites (Hulu HD, The Daily Show)(these sites play with no issue under Vista)
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Old 01-09-09, 12:18 PM   #26
Alejandro Nova
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

I really thought that full-screen Flash disasters have nothing to do with nVidia and everything to do with this:

http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2...s_the_gpu.html

Another important note: Compiz and GPU-accelerated Flash on Linux do not mix. The Flash Player still works if you have Compiz as your window manager; you just won't be able to make use of GPU-accelerated features. This is a shame since Compiz is coming with the basic installation of various Linux distributions. Unfortunately, things get unstable when trying to do GPU acceleration in SWFs running under Compiz.

In other words, Flash actively tries to detect if Compiz is running, and, if it's running, it disables all OpenGL acceleration, needed to scale your Flash Video data to screen. You are doing all the scaling in software, and that's why you have such craptastic performance. I tried the theory with my old GeForce FX 5500 and it's true: with Compiz it's UNBEARABLY SLOW, but with KWin the speed is more than acceptable.
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Old 01-09-09, 01:26 PM   #27
zim2dive
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

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Originally Posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
I really thought that full-screen Flash disasters have nothing to do with nVidia and everything to do with this:

http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2...s_the_gpu.html

Another important note: Compiz and GPU-accelerated Flash on Linux do not mix. The Flash Player still works if you have Compiz as your window manager; you just won't be able to make use of GPU-accelerated features. This is a shame since Compiz is coming with the basic installation of various Linux distributions. Unfortunately, things get unstable when trying to do GPU acceleration in SWFs running under Compiz.

In other words, Flash actively tries to detect if Compiz is running, and, if it's running, it disables all OpenGL acceleration, needed to scale your Flash Video data to screen. You are doing all the scaling in software, and that's why you have such craptastic performance. I tried the theory with my old GeForce FX 5500 and it's true: with Compiz it's UNBEARABLY SLOW, but with KWin the speed is more than acceptable.

Again, with 173 video performance is great. With 177 and 180 it is not. I don't believe your reasoning can explain that.
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Old 01-09-09, 01:36 PM   #28
artem
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

Since I'm still running KDE3 I've disabled all performance related hacks except Option "PixmapCacheSize" "1048576" and now I have around 10% CPU utilization when watching youtube videos (with 180.22 drivers). ;-)

Last edited by artem; 01-09-09 at 01:36 PM. Reason: clarified drivers version
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Old 01-09-09, 01:49 PM   #29
zim2dive
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

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Originally Posted by artem View Post
Since I'm still running KDE3 I've disabled all performance related hacks except Option "PixmapCacheSize" "1048576" and now I have around 10% CPU utilization when watching youtube videos (with 180.22 drivers). ;-)
YouTube performance is not a good indicator of success (you've only solved half the problem).. I can easily get that working no matter what driver I use (just disable Desktop effects.. not sure if that is the same as disabling compiz).

The real tests are anything HD ( ie. hulu.com/hd) or fullscreen of The Daily show (not sure why its so much tougher than Youtube, but it make my 8200 whimper) (these same sources play well under 173, badly under 177/180, and flawlessly in Windows)
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Old 01-09-09, 05:12 PM   #30
Zer01
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

I have been following this thread for some time now and have had the same results as others regarding the youtube and HULU flash performance. I also started and always resorted back to the 173 driver.

Last night I tried the 180.22 driver and FULL screen HULU both normal and HD versions finally smoothed out. The problem was windowed or non-full screen videos was the same old poor and buggy performance. It is so bad it would crash before I could get to the full screen option sometimes. But once I went full screen it finally smoothed out and worked as well as the 173 driver. I never got a chance to try youtube just hulu...

I am running an Abit motherboard with geforce 8200 IGP and Slax6.0.7...
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Old 01-09-09, 05:15 PM   #31
Lysius
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

It might really be Adobe trying to detect if Compiz is running. Perhaps 173 has a bug that prevents the flash player from doing so.

Nvidia implemented quite a lot of features in the last driver versions, so it might easily be some feature whose presence exposes some "bugs" in other software, that could not be seen or tested before.
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Old 01-09-09, 07:04 PM   #32
zim2dive
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

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Originally Posted by Lysius View Post
It might really be Adobe trying to detect if Compiz is running. Perhaps 173 has a bug that prevents the flash player from doing so.

Nvidia implemented quite a lot of features in the last driver versions, so it might easily be some feature whose presence exposes some "bugs" in other software, that could not be seen or tested before.
I don't think that is the case b/c there are quite a few folks on the avsforums in the linux htpc group that have "lesser" nvidia GPUs that apparently work much better than what I see.. so that seems to point to a particular issue with the 8200 (and 8300?) with 173/177.

I've round and round on this with folks with several different cards.. everyone wants to blame Adobe until I can show them the results of 173 vs 177.. at that point it becomes clear there is a definite issue with the nvidia drivers with regard to the 8200, and those must be fixed before any other solution can have a chance.

Since 177 added hdmi audio to the 8200 (at the same time performance went in the tubes), that is the 1st thing I would inspect (if I had access to the code)... ie. something in that implementation created the slowdown.
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Old 01-09-09, 10:19 PM   #33
pcjason
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

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Originally Posted by zim2dive View Post
I don't think that is the case b/c there are quite a few folks on the avsforums in the linux htpc group that have "lesser" nvidia GPUs that apparently work much better than what I see.. so that seems to point to a particular issue with the 8200 (and 8300?) with 173/177.

I've round and round on this with folks with several different cards.. everyone wants to blame Adobe until I can show them the results of 173 vs 177.. at that point it becomes clear there is a definite issue with the nvidia drivers with regard to the 8200, and those must be fixed before any other solution can have a chance.

Since 177 added hdmi audio to the 8200 (at the same time performance went in the tubes), that is the 1st thing I would inspect (if I had access to the code)... ie. something in that implementation created the slowdown.
zim2dive,
I'm glad you're speaking up for us. This is most definitely a driver issue. As you said, with driver 173.x things are ok, anything thereafter gives me trouble. Maybe we are focusing too much on flash performance and not enough on what I feel the root problem is. I haven't really heard many others talk about the 2d performance problems. Do me a favor and see if you have 2d issues as well. The test is very simple. Use a driver after 177.x, boot into your DE (i personally use gnome, I don't know if this works with kde), disable any desktop effects (ie. no compiz), open a window (a console or text editor should be fine), now switch to a new desktop (ctrl+alt+<right arrow key>). The result, in my case, is that I can literally watch the screen be redrawn. I'm guessing whatever function is used to redraw the screen in gnome is also used in flash, and I'm guessing this is what is causing the issue. Maybe this can send the devs in the right direction.
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Old 01-10-09, 09:40 AM   #34
zim2dive
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

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Originally Posted by pcjason View Post
zim2dive,
I'm glad you're speaking up for us. This is most definitely a driver issue. As you said, with driver 173.x things are ok, anything thereafter gives me trouble.
I do chip and firmware design for a living (datacom, not video).. narrowing down issues is part of what I do

Folks may be right that flash, gnome, whatever have their own issues, but this would seem to be a pretty clear case showing that the nvidia driver is directly contributing to the overall unacceptable level of performance.

If it can have good performance under 173, they should be able to offer us improved performance in 177/180, not degraded performance, when the ONLY difference is which nvidia driver we use, or at least get us BACK to the same performance we got with 173.

I just don't know if we have the attention of anyone on the development side, arguing with non-devs here doesn't accomplish anything. I submitted to the dev email addr, but haven't heard anything in return (not even an automated email acknowledging receipt of my bug report), so I'm getting less hopeful and exploring purchase of other (non nV) hardware (gotta vote with your $$, its the only thing we have). Life's too short to sit and fume about this for more than a few weeks. after that it's time to move to something which already has good support.
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Old 01-10-09, 08:16 PM   #35
Alejandro Nova
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

@All: Interesting. We are clear nVidia has an issue with 8200 and Flash, but I recommend you to remove Compiz from the equation. If we remove Compiz we remove all Compiz compositing bugs, and we leave only nVidia bugs left. nVidia developers will be able to fix THEIR bugs, and they will let the Compiz guys do the same.

I've mentioned KWin all the time, and that's because I'm using KWin 4.2 (beta, soon to be released), with desktop effects and compositing. That means: we are not necessarily talking about a bug with compositing that has to do with nVidia; there is a great chance we are talking about a bug with Compiz. If I get 0,5 fps with Compiz, and 8-10 fps with KWin and desktop effects enabled (hey, it's a 5500 FX with a puny CPU, it can't do miracles), there is a great chance that Compiz is the source of the failure, not nVidia.

So, try again with KWin (specifically KWin, because it is the only other window manager that can do Compiz-like effects) and tell us. Is the performance worse? How? If you compare between KWin and Compiz, does it differs? Remember: if you do that, you'll help nVidia to find the true source of the bug that is affecting you, and you'll help Compiz too, in the long run.
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Old 01-11-09, 07:00 PM   #36
zim2dive
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Default Re: Poor performance for full-screen flash, geForce 8200

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Originally Posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
@All: Interesting. We are clear nVidia has an issue with 8200 and Flash, but I recommend you to remove Compiz from the equation. If we remove Compiz we remove all Compiz compositing bugs, and we leave only nVidia bugs left. nVidia developers will be able to fix THEIR bugs, and they will let the Compiz guys do the same.

I've mentioned KWin all the time, and that's because I'm using KWin 4.2 (beta, soon to be released), with desktop effects and compositing. That means: we are not necessarily talking about a bug with compositing that has to do with nVidia; there is a great chance we are talking about a bug with Compiz. If I get 0,5 fps with Compiz, and 8-10 fps with KWin and desktop effects enabled (hey, it's a 5500 FX with a puny CPU, it can't do miracles), there is a great chance that Compiz is the source of the failure, not nVidia.

So, try again with KWin (specifically KWin, because it is the only other window manager that can do Compiz-like effects) and tell us. Is the performance worse? How? If you compare between KWin and Compiz, does it differs? Remember: if you do that, you'll help nVidia to find the true source of the bug that is affecting you, and you'll help Compiz too, in the long run.

I'm new to the linux world as an end user at home (15 years at work, but the windowing systems I get to choose from there are monstrously dated, and I don't try to fun FS flash there).... how does one remove compiz? (I disabled Desktop effects weeks ago in Ubuntu... that was the ticket to get full-screen YouTube to work.. but hulu hd and The Daily Show are still in the toilet).. I had the loose impression that might mean I already have compiz disabled, but wanted to be sure.

thanks,
Mike
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