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Old 06-15-09, 12:08 PM   #61
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Cool Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NarcissistZero View Post
Two quick follow-up points...

I agree graphics matter, mostly for the sake of immersion. A. I don't think consoles suffer so greatly in thie regard as you postulate though. I know of only a few games that really suffer from tearing, and jaggies are not so bad when viewed from far away. B. If more games were like Crysis and fundementally better, as in better base assets, larger worlds, etc., then I would agree with you more... those days seemed to have passed though.
Secondly, my comments on Doom 4 and the consoles relate to PC in this way: the better console they use as a base, the better the PC version will look/play.
A. Truely? I'm not an owner of a current Gen Console... but I have a friend who owns an old Xbox and 99% of his games (he has around 100) don't have working AA. 'Everytime' I've stopped to look at what the kids at Frys or Best Buy are playing on either the P3 or 360, I notice on those huge widescreen tvs, Tearing and Jaggies. I was on the phone with Microsoft and asked them if the 360 supported V-Sync and AA... they had 'no' clue what I was talking about, I sat on hold for 15+ minutes while they transferred me to Tech 2 and Tech 2 told me that the 360 did not support either of those options and that it was 'up' to the Developer of the game to make sure either of those 2 options worked. Sonys' Tech 2 told me the same thing.

With the small amount of Forum searching I've done (for sh*ts and g*ggles), I've seen about 50% of posts report Tears and Jaggies on both of those console systems. In the end: that doesn't give me a definitive answer, but one thing I can say for sure... is that I've yet to see a Youtube video of either a P3 or 360 playing a game that doesn't exhibit both Tearing and Jagged Edges... and that speaks volumes to me.

The general consensus I've seen is that for the most part, at a 1080 resolution: the P3 and 360 will support V-Sync, 'but' at a severe framerate cost.... = that would explain why I've never seen a Youtube vid of those two systems playing a game without Tearing. Lol, everytime I ragged on the posters about the Tears in said Youtube threads: all I got was hate in return along with, "go back to your Elitest PC gaming, *ssface", lol....

Combine all of that ^ with the fact that the PC has the capability for better/faster memory = better Texture quality 9/10 (Fallout 3 for example, lol.... it looks like garbage on the P3 and 360 imo, and I'm sure most will agree), zero compromises in terms of "max models on screen at once", "size of scenery/maps" along with better AI capabilities.

I'm sorry, but I think Microsoft and Sony have completely sold the Public short on both of those systems, and the next gen will be more of the same imo. They'll be as expensive as a mediocre computer, and will barely perform what they're asked/programmed to do. They will require constant patching of their games (just like PC, and just like the P3 and 360 have had to abide by from the getgo), and their gaming selection will be smaller than what the PC offers.


B. Interesting comment..... truely. I beg to differ though:

Farcry 1/2, Crysis, Bioshock 1-3, HL1-2+Mods/EXPs, Quake 1-4, Doom3+Mods, Alpha Prime, AvP 1/2+EXPs (the new one in the making, yowsers), Fallout 3, Stalker+EXP, Timeshift, Jericho, F.E.A.R. 1/2+EXPs, JK 2 Jedi Outcast, Soldier of Fortune 2/3, Ghost Recon SW 1/2, All Medal of Honor/Call of Duty games, Chronicles of Riddick EFBB, Serious Sam Series including 2, Painkiller 1/2, Gene Troopers, Chaser, Unreal 1/2, Call of Cthulhu, Penumbra Overture/Black Plague, Call of Juarez, Boiling Point, Deus Ex 1/2, Condemned, Firestarter, Red Ocean, Cryostasis, The Suffering 1/2, Undying, Mace Griffin BH, Halo, Return to Wolfenstein, Ubersoldier 1/2, Turning Point Fall of Liberty, Legendary, Postal II, Shellshock 2, Hellgate London (and many more)..... to name a few FPShooters.

Splinter Cell 1-4, Hitman 2-4, Vampire the MBs, Prince of Persia Sands of Time/T2T, Manhunt, Just Cause, Stranglehold, Cold War, Made Man, Resident 2-5, Silent Hill 2-5..... to name a few 3PShooters.

IL2, Silent Hunter 3/4, Apache Havoc, Enemy Engaged 2, Falcon 4.0, X-Wing Alliance, Space Force Rogue Universe, X-Wing/Tie-Fighter, Tarr Chronicles 1/2, Riftspace, Evochron Renegades/Evochron Legends, Starshatter TGS, Freelancer, Hard Truck Apocalypse, Scrapland, Mechwarrior 4+EXPs..... to name a few SIMs.

RACE 07, GTR2/GT Legends, NFS Prostreet/NFS UG2/and others in the series, Test Drive Unlimited 1/2, DIRT, Flatout 1/2, Crashday, Powerboat GT..... to name a few Race SIMs.

ESIII w/MGE, ESIV GOTEs, Two Worlds, Overlord 1/2, DM of Might and Magic, Dungeon Lords, Avencast RoT Mage, Knight Apocalypse, Sid Meiers Pirates, Titan Quest IT, Dungeon Siege 1/2, Fate/UR, Silverfall+EXP, Project Nomads, Gothic 1-3, Diablo 1-3, Sacred 2, Fallout 1-3, Fable 1/2..... to name a few RPGs.

Galactic Civilizations II - TOA, Sins of a Solar Empire, UFO Afterlight/ET, Empire at War+EXP, Laser Squad Nemesis, Disciples II RotE Gold, Lords of the Realm III, Rome TW+EXP, Space Rangers 1/2..... to name a few Strategy Games.

Warcraft 1-3, Starcraft 1/2, Armies of Exigo, Warrior Kings Battles, The Battle for ME II+EXP, Spellforce 1/2, Homeworld 2, Ground Control II, Mech Commander 2, UAW Earth Assault, DOW+EXPs, Company of Heroes+EXPs, War Front Turning Point, Command and Conquer 3+EXP/Red Alert 3, Supreme Commander+EXP/2, Earth 2160, Genesis Rising..... to name a few RTSs.

Grand Theft Auto 1-4, Godfather 1/2, Mafia 1/2, Scarface, Gangland..... to name a couple Gangster RPGs.

Then there's a host of misc Arcade titles.... and many more to come out in the next 2 years, so as you can see lol..... I feel there are plenty of games with quality, "base assets".... old and new.


The Console systems don't and will never be able to afford me such a selection... 'and' with 99% chance of working V-Sync/AA taboot.... also (for the few that are available on said Consoles), the PC versions 9/10 will have better textures, and sometimes even more content... Fable 1 for example, lol.



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Old 06-15-09, 02:55 PM   #62
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

bo 360 supports AA of course... most titles have 2 or 4xMSAA. This leaves a lot of jaggies of course, which is why I mentioned distance.

PS3 has a lot more trouble with AA certainly, but it still uses it sometimes. Again, distance from TV often makes it unobtrusive.

As for that list of games you made, I have no idea what that is supposed to prove. y contention is that modern games, as in post-360-era, on PC, have the same base assets 90% of the time.
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Old 06-15-09, 04:17 PM   #63
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NarcissistZero View Post
bo 360 supports AA of course... most titles have 2 or 4xMSAA. This leaves a lot of jaggies of course, which is why I mentioned distance.

PS3 has a lot more trouble with AA certainly, but it still uses it sometimes. Again, distance from TV often makes it unobtrusive.

As for that list of games you made, I have no idea what that is supposed to prove. A. y contention is that modern games, as in post-360-era, on PC, have the same base assets 90% of the time.
The most important feature is V-Sync, not AA... and like I said, why do all Youtube Vids of 360/P3 gamers exhibit Tearing all over the place? Why is that I wonder.... Why did both Microsoft and Sonys' Tech 2 Support tell me 'firstly', "they didn't know what AA and V-Sync were" and 'secondly', "their support is soley dependent on the Dev/Pub making sure it works".... baffles me. Like I said before, there are zero excuses for games post '00 to not have working AA and V-Sync.


"If more games were like Crysis and fundementally better, as in better base assets, larger worlds, etc., then I would agree with you more... those days seemed to have passed though."

I shared that list of quality games to prove there are 'still' plenty of games with quality base assets/ideas/adventures/etc to be had by the gamer.... those days "haven't passed" imo. My adventures only begun 1-08 when I built this machine, and now I've got a lifetime to enjoy them.

Maybe I'm easier to please... who knows.... but I know what you're saying and where you're coming from: I just can't agree in the slightest because of the sheer number of quality (imo mind you) games I have to play... and that continue to be created.


A. Lol... so 'only' games past the 360 Era are "modern"... lol... how long have you been gaming? Seriously? IDTech 4 which came out 5 years ago is still 'beyond' Modern in every sense of the word, so your statement both baffles me and disappoints me. I wouldn't care if you were soley a Console Gamer, but hearing a fellow PC Gamer say something like that just sounds ignorant as hell to me.

Honestly it sounds like you're either really hard to please (which I can understand, not everyone likes everything) or completely jaded when it comes to Gaming in general (which is also definitely your prerogative).


Not to bust your balls dude, but statements like that ^ coming from someone who supports Console Gaming (which hasen't done 'anything' to further gaming in terms of graphics or gameplay) ever so slightly rubs me the wrong way.



Hell, maybe it's all that rain you get in Florida, lol.
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Old 06-15-09, 04:34 PM   #64
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

To get point A out of the way, I have done a ton of gaming on the 360 and PS3 and tearing has only been noticeable on a few titles. The only one that sticks out in my mind is the first GRAW.

I don't know what youtube does to videos, so I can't comment there.

As for what is modern and what isn't and my "ignorance," I think you just are missing my point. You're playing older games and love them more than console games, good for you. I would probably agree with you, since I find older PC games to be my favorite games of all time, more often than not, as far back as Monkey Island and Deus Ex.

My statement was that now-a-days, since the Xbox and Halo became popular, PC games have not usually had a real graphics advantage in most titles. Whereas it used to be a console version of a hit PC game, like Quake 2 or Diablo, was massively inferior to its PC counterpart, or PC games never appeared on consoles at all, now-a-days games are released for all systems more or less looking exactly the same.

Playing Ghostbusters this week on PC will get you more AA and higher resolution, and maybe even an added effect or two rarely, it's still the same fundemental experience and graphics. It is 99% the same, especially when viewed on an HDTV from a moderate distance.

I played PC games in the 90's and early 00's because there were experiences and graphics in those games you couldn't get anywhere else. I feel as much at home with a control pad as a mouse and keyboard, so that was never an issue. I mainly played PC games because it was the only place you could play Jedi Knight and Diablo 2, and the only place Quake 2 and Command and Conquer played like the should. My main point is that this is no longer the case 99% of the time.

The only reason I stick with PC gaming at this point is better graphics and mouse conrols in FPS games. That is why the platform is weaker now, because most of its unique abilities and games have gone away. Crysis and The Witcher don't make an entire platform.
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Old 06-15-09, 04:59 PM   #65
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NarcissistZero View Post
To get point A out of the way, I have done a ton of gaming on the 360 and PS3 and tearing has only been noticeable on a few titles. The only one that sticks out in my mind is the first GRAW.

I don't know what youtube does to videos, so I can't comment there.

A. As for what is modern and what isn't and my "ignorance," I think you just are missing my point. You're playing older games and love them more than console games, good for you. I would probably agree with you, since I find older PC games to be my favorite games of all time, more often than not, as far back as Monkey Island and Deus Ex.

B. My statement was that now-a-days, since the Xbox and Halo became popular, PC games have not usually had a real graphics advantage in most titles. Whereas it used to be a console version of a hit PC game, like Quake 2 or Diablo, was massively inferior to its PC counterpart, or PC games never appeared on consoles at all, now-a-days games are released for all systems more or less looking exactly the same.
Playing Ghostbusters this week on PC will get you more AA and higher resolution, and maybe even an added effect or two rarely, it's still the same fundemental experience and graphics. It is 99% the same, especially when viewed on an HDTV from a moderate distance.

C. I played PC games in the 90's and early 00's because there were experiences and graphics in those games you couldn't get anywhere else. I feel as much at home with a control pad as a mouse and keyboard, so that was never an issue. I mainly played PC games because it was the only place you could play Jedi Knight and Diablo 2, and the only place Quake 2 and Command and Conquer played like the should. My main point is that this is no longer the case 99% of the time.
The only reason I stick with PC gaming at this point is better graphics and mouse conrols in FPS games. That is why the platform is weaker now, because most of its unique abilities and games have gone away.

D. Crysis and The Witcher don't make an entire platform.
Weird, GRAW 1/2 both respond to me forcing V-Sync, but sadly, they don't respond to me trying to force AA... the Devs for both of them either didn't know how to implement AA (a decade old feature) or they simply weren't paid to do so. Either way, the jaggies make those games look half as good as they could look.


A. I'm not missing anything... your definition of "modern" and mine obviously differ greatly. I'm playing "older games"... lol... they're all within 5+ years of now... I'm not talking about Super Mario Brothers here. Out of the 280 I have installed, maybe 30-50 are pre '02 and out of the 200+ I have sitting on the floor, maybe 20-30 are pre '02. If I was comparing Sprite based engines VS. 3d engines, I'd understand your comment; but that's not how you're describing your view on "modern", so....


B. Yeah, I got that as I already detailed in a previous post... remember, I respectfully disagreed with you. Take Fallout 3 for example... the Console versions look terrible compared to what the PC can do with it, and the framerate is a joke. It's like that for every Console Game I've seen whether it was original to the Console or ported from PC. Bioshock, another great example... the textures look way better on PC and I can force AA and it looks magnificent! I don't even know if the P3 and 360 support V-Sync for Bioshock... if not, wow: there's another huge disadvantage.

"Playing Ghostbusters this week on PC will get you more AA and higher resolution, and maybe even an added effect or two rarely, it's still the same fundemental experience and graphics. It is 99% the same, especially when viewed on an HDTV from a moderate distance."

Sorry, not if it doesn't have functioning V-Sync.... and 'especially' considering the Console player is dictated to on "how" he can play the game - i.e. the Controller. It's not the same, the framerate is 'iffy' at best, the look isn't the same quality, and the options are simply not there. It's 75% the same, I'll give you that.... it's a close 2nd, lol but it still falls short in the end... lol... 'and' the Console Gamer paid $10 more for it new, 'and' the Console Gamer doesn't have the option to wait and see if it surfaces on Ebay or Half Price Books a year later at HALF the price... so no, I disagree with you there as well.

C. It's "no longer the case"... lol..... you can't find 3/4 of those RTS games I listed for Console (probably more)... same for the FPSs, (RPGwise, just a sample) Morrowind and Oblivion for the Consoles are a bloody joke compared to what I have at my fingertips... lol, there's no "MGE mod" for ESIII on the Console, christ, don't get me started. Hell, there's ZERO Flight Sim support on Console and never will be.... that's a done deal.

It's "no longer the case"... Console hasn't 'begun' to catch up as far as options are concerned.... nor have they caught up to Graphics Capability/Quality.

D. Lol... what??? Sorry but you're silly.... here's my current 'Wantlist'


1. Dark Salvation (FPS)
2. Terminator Salvation (3PS)
3. Red Alert 3 (RTS)
4. Sacred 2 (hacknslash RPG)
5. Dark Horizon - Tarr Chronicles part 2 (SIM) [CHECK]
6. Far Cry 2 (FPS) [CHECK]
7. GTA IV (3PS)
8. Dead Space (3PS)
9. Left for Dead (FPS)
10. Call of Duty 5 World At War (FPS)
11. Empire Total War (RTS Strategy)
12. Resident Evil 5 (3PS)
13. Fallout The Ultimate Collection parts 1, 2, & Tactics (RPG Strategy) [CHECK]
14. Dawn of War II (RTS)
15. X-Men Origins: Wolverine (3PS I think)
16. Velvet Assassin (FPS)
17. Saints Row 2 (3PS)
18. Assassins Creed 'Altairs Chronicles' EXP (3PS)
19. Guild War Various EXPs (RPG)
20. Legendary (FPS)
21. Tom Clancys H.A.W.X. (3P SIM)
22. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 'Clear Sky' EXP (FPS) [CHECK]
23. Devil May Cry 4 (3PA) [CHECK]
24. Street Fighter IV (Arcade) ***
25. Brothers In Arms Hells Highway (FPS) [CHECK]
26. Lock On, make sure to get the full package (SIM)
27. Star Wars the Force Unleashed, if it's ever ported (3PS)
28. Bioshock 2 (FPS) ***
29. Crysis 'Warhead' EXP (FPS)
30. Rage (FPS) ***
31. Doom 4 (FPS) ***
32. Starcraft 2 (RTS) ***
33. Diablo III (hacknslash RPG) ***
34. They Hunger: Lost Souls (FPS) ***
35. GTR Evolution, buy at HPB only (Race SIM)
36. Aliens Vs. Predator!!! (FPS) ***
37. Demigod (RTS)
38. Ravensquad (FPS + RTS)
39. Zeno Clash 2 (FPS + RPG)
40. Fallout 3 GOTYEdition, includes all 5 EXPs (FPS + RPG) ***
41. Gothic 3 'Forsaken Gods' EXP (RPG) [CHECK]
42. Company of Heroes 'Tales of Valor' EXP (RTS)
43. Still Life (Adventure)
44. Still Life 2 (Adventure)
45. F.E.A.R. 2 (FPS)
46. Lego Indiana Jones (Arcade)
47. Tom Clancy's End War (RTS)
48. Chronicles of Riddick Assault on Dark Athena (FPS)
49. Prince of Persia 4 (3PA)
50. Crime Stories (Adventure)
51. Spider Man Web of Shadows (3PA)
52. Sonic Riders (Arcade Racer)
53. Red Orchestra, HPB only (FPS)
54. Shellshock 2: Blood Trails (FPS)
55. BET on Soldier 'Black-Out Saigon' EXP (FPS)
56. Wolfenstein (FPS) ***
57. X3: Reunion (Strategy SIM) [CHECK]
58. Genesis Rising: The Universal Crusader (RTS) [CHECK]
59. Perimeter 2: New Earth (RTS)
60. Neverwinter Nights 2 + ALL EXPs (RPG)
61. Neocron (FPS)
62. Beyond Good and Evil 2 (3PS Puzzle)
63. Need for Speed Undercover (Race SIM)
64. Test Driving Unlimited 2 (Race SIM) ***
65. Tomb Raider Anniversary (3PA)
66. Lego Batman (Arcade)
67. DCS: Black Shark (SIM Helicoptor) same people who made ILS!
68. The Protector (FPS/3PS?)
69. Necrovision (FPS) ---Wolfenstein wannbe---
70. Lords of Everquest (RTS) [CHECK]
71. Dungeon Lords: The Orb and the Oracle {Dungeon Lords 2?} (RPG)
72. Silent Hunter 4: WOTP 'U-Boat Missions' EXP (SIM)
73. Silent Hill 5: Homecoming (3PA) ***
74. Batman: Arkham Asylum (3PA)
75. Mafia 2 (3PS)
76. The Godfather 2 (3PS)
77. Mercenaries 2 (3PS) [CHECK]
78. System Shock 2 (FPS) [remember, SAME issues with Quad Core as Thief II... G/L getting it to work!]
79. Overlord II (3PA RPGish) ***
80. Lost Planet 2 (3PS) ***
81. Galactic Civilizations II 'Twilight of the Arnor' EXP (4X Strat) [CHECK]
82. Cryostasis (FPS)
83. Postal II (FPS) HPBs ONLY
84. X3: 'Terran Conflict' EXP (Strategy SIM)
85. Supreme Commander 2 (RTS) ***



There's a wee bit more than Crysis and The Witcher for PC, you might wanna take a look around.... you'll be surprised. Lemme know how many of these will be available on Console, and after determining that #: keep in mind how crappy they'll be in comparison to the PC version in terms of Options/Controls/Quality/Framerate/Graphics.

Also keep in mind that whichever ones from that list ^ are being Developed on Console first, that they'll be even sicker for PC...

I rest my case.
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Old 06-15-09, 05:39 PM   #66
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

Diezel engine (used in GRAW1/2, Wanted: Weapons Of Fate and Terminator: Salvation) doesn't support FSAA due to the deferred lighting. There isn't any work around (unlike with all the Unreal3 engine games that use the same lighting method).
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Old 06-15-09, 06:06 PM   #67
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

I don't think this is worth debating anymore. There used to be significant differences between console gaming and PC gaming, and now there really isn't.

If you disagree with that, well, that's your opinion I guess.
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Old 06-15-09, 06:09 PM   #68
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

Quote:
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Diezel engine (used in GRAW1/2, Wanted: Weapons Of Fate and Terminator: Salvation) doesn't support FSAA due to the deferred lighting. There isn't any work around (unlike with all the Unreal3 engine games that use the same lighting method).
First of all, I thought GRAW used the U3 Engine..?...

That's truly interesting because I've heard the same excuse used for the U3 Engine and U3 Engine based games in general.... thank goodness it's only the case for some U3 Engine based games.

"Wanted: Weapons Of Fate and Terminator: Salvation"

Great... two more that I can expect Jaggies on... yay.


thks for pipin in
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Old 06-15-09, 06:14 PM   #69
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

Quote:
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I don't think this is worth debating anymore. There used to be significant differences between console gaming and PC gaming, and now there really isn't.

If you disagree with that, well, that's your opinion I guess.
If you don't call paying 10x more for a HD for a Console system compared to a PC a "significant difference", then I don't know what to tell you.

Graphics capabilities, Controller options, the fact that the games cost $10 more brand new and have little to no hope of ever being sold for cheap (sealed/new) on 2nd Line Retail, Reliability, V-Sync & AA.... these aren't differences based on opinion, they're based on fact.


But me saying I think Console Gaming is a joke compared to PC Gaming.... yes sir: that's an opinion.




It's ok: you needn't attempt debate at this point considering all chances for Victory left you long ago.

Have a care.


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Old 06-15-09, 07:06 PM   #70
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

Pretty sure a point is missed, Developers(or the publishers), are developing console first now, and PC second, if at all, that usually tends to leave PC with a mediocore port, and console level graphics.
However, thanks to a few key developers, we still have a better experience in some games because they are dedicated to PC first, Valve is a good example, Crytek were also a good example, ID are kind of doing both at once but are still PC devs at heart, and Blizzard loves us PC gamers.
Epic have abandoned their roots and are attacking PC as a gaming platform, then expect PC gamers to buy their **** and are shocked when their games dont sell as well on PC :P

When the first DX11 games come out I expect there to again be a large gap between consoles and PCs, but the console first developed games will still be roughly equal on PC, thats just how it is, and its not until the next gen consoles that we will see better use of PC hardware by them.
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Old 06-15-09, 10:44 PM   #71
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

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It's ok: you needn't attempt debate at this point considering all chances for Victory left you long ago.

Have a care.


You're a trip...
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Old 06-16-09, 01:35 AM   #72
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Default Re: Doom 4 30FPS cap (?)

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You're a trip...
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