A little disappointed in Nvidia

[Xion X2]

Originally Posted by nekrosoft13

point it, that is doesn't always scale right, with single GPU you don't have to worry if it will or won't

95-97% of the time it scales right.

Originally Posted by nekrosoft13

I had SLI before, and I build SLI and CF rigs every month or so.

Then you should know better.

[Bee_Dee_3_Dee]

Originally Posted by Heinz68

Multi-GPU card is ATI strategy to compete against the top end NVIDIA cards in the last 3 generations. I'm sure ATI could have also develop a huge chip with more transistor. Looks like the multi GPU design was better and more economical choice.

For that reason I bought the HD 4870 X2 and HD 5970, would have also purchased the GTX 295 if it was not late on the market and originally still with the sandwich design.

The bottom line is ATI still has the fastest Graphic Card, it's not here to compete against multi Graphic Cards system same like GTX 295 wasn't. The only purpose for the GTX 295 was to have the fastest Graphic Card on the market.

As I said before, true NVIDIA has the fastest GPU but people don't buy GPU, they buy Graphic cards.

Now if the GTX 480 was faster than the HT 5970 (as some NVIDIA shills predicted) I would not think for a minute to order one but buing two GTX 480 for at least 1000 USD for me is not a smart option.

This is my reason to stick with the HD 5970. I'm sure some people have many other reasons why they bought tha ATI cards this round, for example 6 months sooner on the market, less expensive, better power consumption, less heat, more quiet etc.

How many Reviews/Benchmarks have you Bookmarked as of now, Heinz68?

What if I showed you Benchmarks where the GTX480 beat the HD5890. And not just the HD5870?

What would you say then?

You'd say something like, well I don't even play that game?

Or, my monitor doesn't go up that high?

If it can beat it in a few games, with the first drivers ever released for it. And, if it can beat it at a few resolutions, with the first drivers ever released for it.

What then, will it do, with newer drivers?

Beat it even more, is the logical answer. Right?

The HD5970's drivers are maxed out and newer ones are not going to gain anymore performance for the card. But the GTX480 will keep improving performance for the next 4 to 20 weeks easily.

[Xion X2]

Originally Posted by Bee_Dee_3_Dee

The HD5970's drivers are maxed out and newer ones are not going to gain anymore performance for the card.

You don't know that. Throughout the life cycle of a card, drivers are constantly improving performance. Dirt 2 saw a 25-30% increase on the 5970 just before Fermi came out.

480 will have more of a ceiling, but to say 5970 won't see any increases is illogical.

[Bee_Dee_3_Dee]

Originally Posted by Xion X2

You don'tknow that. Throughout the life cycle of a card, drivers are constantly improving performance. Dirt 2 saw a 25-30% increase on the 5970 just before Fermi came out.

480 will have more of a ceiling, but to say 5970 won't see any increases is illogical.

"Dirt 2 saw a 25-30% increase on the 5970 just before Fermi came out."

Exactly!

My point exactly!

Do you think it will improve beyond that?

Now it is 25-30%. What next? Improvement that make the Dirt 2's existing improvement of 25-30% go up to 35-40%? Then after that improvement that takes it to 42-45%? Then even higher than that?

No. It is not getting substantially better than that. The card is six months old. The driver updates only improve performance for so long. Only a few percentage points in improvement are possible now for the HD5970.

Whereby the GTX480 is going to improve substantially. Just like the HD5970's performance improved substantially. It grew and grew and grew for six months after its' release. Look at its' numbers now compared to then. And now, look at the GTX480's numbers grow and grow and grow over the next few weeks and months. The GTX480 will achieve more and more.

Many achievements if recorded in a Guinness Book of World Records would remain as first obtained by the HD5970. Just like walking on the moon was first obtained by Neil. So what if you get there second? Right?

But the achievement is still just as worthy as before! People still climb to the top of Mount Everest. Right?

Don't applaud your card when it achieves a certain mark in Crysis; and then refuse to applaud the competitor's card when it reaches and even surpasses that same mark! Applaud it too.

[Heinz68]

Originally Posted by Bee_Dee_3_Dee

How many Reviews/Benchmarks have you Bookmarked as of now, Heinz68?

What if I showed you Benchmarks where the GTX480 beat the HD5890. And not just the HD5870?

What would you say then?

You'd say something like, well I don't even play that game?

Or, my monitor doesn't go up that high?

If it can beat it in a few games, with the first drivers ever released for it. And, if it can beat it at a few resolutions, with the first drivers ever released for it.

What then, will it do, with newer drivers?

Beat it even more, is the logical answer. Right?

The HD5970's drivers are maxed out and newer ones are not going to gain anymore performance for the card. But the GTX480 will keep improving performance for the next 4 to 20 weeks easily.

Such a useless argument it is just unbelievable, since very few people buy a $500 Graphic Card to play one game, they compare the average performance and the other factors which I pointed out.

Anyway there is not such animal like HD5890 so GTX480 can't beat it at least not yet. It's going to be kind of impossible for you to show it to me.

I can find some benches were the HD 5970 was faster than GTX 480 SLI, same useless.

The fact is the HD 5970 is the fastest card on the market, get used to it.

I had not any problem to give NVIDIA credit for the fastest card when the GTX 295 came out and NEVER argued otherwise even though the GTX 295 was not faster in every game than the HD 4870 X2 I had at that time. Actually on some games at 2560 x 1600 with higher settings the GTX 295 was getting zero ratings (unplayable) due to shortage of WRAM.

People also don't buy Graphic Card to SPECULATE what future drivers might or might not do.

ATI has hard time to get the developers cooperation on some of the TWIMTBP games when not released (some time even after release), NVIDIA had much longer time to work on such drivers.

NVIDIA had much more time to work on the drivers than ATI had when they released the first HD 5*** cards.

GTX 400 cards were about 6 months delayed but the basic architecture didn't change so the driver team had plenty of times to work on the drivers.

[Bee_Dee_3_Dee]

Originally Posted by Heinz68

Such a useless argument it is just unbelievable, since very few people buy a $500 Graphic Card to play one game, they compare the average performance and the other factors which I pointed out.

Anyway there is not such animal like HD5890 at least not yet.

I can find some benches were the HD 5970 was faster than GTX 480 SLI, same useless.

The fact is the HD 5970 is the fastest card on the market, get used to it.

I had not any problem to give NVIDIA credit for the fastest card when the GTX 295 came out and NEVER argued otherwise even though the GTX 295 was not faster in every game than the HD 4870 X2 I had at that time. Actually on some games at 2560 x 1600 with higher settings the GTX 295 was getting zero ratings (unplayable) due to shortage of WRAM.

People also don't buy Graphic Card to SPECULATE what future drivers might or might not do.

ATI has hard time to get the developers cooperation on some of the TWIMTBP games when not released (some time even after release), NVIDIA had much longer time to work on such drivers.

NVIDIA had much more time to work on the drivers than ATI had when they released the first HD 5*** cards.

GTX 400 cards were about 6 months delayed but the basic architecture didn't change so the driver team had plenty of times to work on the drivers.

Sry for all the typos.

It was a long day at work.

I didn't mean a single game.

That was just an example. I didn't want to have to type on and on.

But answer the very first question I asked on my previous post and I won't ask any more on this post.

"How many Reviews/Benchmarks have you Bookmarked as of now, Heinz68?"

ty

[gulizard]

Can we make an ATI specific section and please ban people from talking non stop about ATI. A few FPS isn't going to make me not buy nvidia. Sorry... Stupid argument here. Every person saying how great ATI is, has an ATI card. If I put my money into a card, and something better came out I'd argue to. People are so surprised bout the heat, its not a big deal, my old 6800 GT ran at like 90C loaded.

Wait for nvidia to actually optimize the drivers and bring them out, then we shall see. For now quit making stupid points about ATI Cards, you can tell me all day long your not an ATI FAN BOY, but you are. I am nvidia fan boy, but I am on a NVIDIA FAN SITE, not "ATINEWS.NET"

[Heinz68]

Originally Posted by Bee_Dee_3_Dee

Sry for all the typos.

It was a long day at work.

I didn't mean a single game.

That was just an example. I didn't want to have to type on and on.

But answer the very first question I asked on my previous post and I won't ask any more on this post.

"How many Reviews/Benchmarks have you Bookmarked as of now, Heinz68?"

ty

Also useless question. The answer is I didn't bookmark any. There is a site that has 51 Reviews/Benchmarks listed, I'm sure there are more of them. I only did read few reviews on the major sites and few others "Conclusion" only. There is no need for me to read more, have no time for that.

Every site concluded that GTX 480 has the fastest GPU no argument about that. Did not see any site that concluded GTX 480 is the fastest Graphic Card. I think even some of the biggest NVIDIA shills would have hard time to argue that, so I don't know where are you coming from.

I hope this is end of the argument at least for me.

[nekrosoft13]

Originally Posted by Xion X2

Then you should know better.

yes i do, and i know to avoid them

[shadow001]

Originally Posted by Bee_Dee_3_Dee

I forgot abut the efficiency, Shadow.

But what if only the FPS numbers were in consideration?

And just what exactly are the numbers?

Meaning, if you didn't care that a newly released card costs $80 more, and didn't care about the power, or the noise. So if none of those were an issue. And only the FPS mattered.

And depending on your personal preferences, the Games you like to play, the settings you like, show me the FPS numbers.

Because with the charts I have seen, you don't want to trade for the performance of a GTX480 for the performance of an HD5870. No way. No time.

Meaning, if I had two curtains, and all you knew was that you had to choose one computer out of the two. And behind curtain #1, was a PC that ran a game at 36 FPS. And behind curtain #2, was a PC that ran the same game at 25 FPS. You would seriously pick the one that ran at 25 FPS?

Remember, you don't care about $80 anymore because you get it free. And the Heat is just fine, because the one with a GTX480 has a very cool case. (no pun just temperature wise.) And the noise may still be debatable but I have several PCs that cancel each others sound out, so imagine you do too.

36 FPS or 26 FPS?

Which one is it?

36 FPS or 26 FPS?

Well put it this way,even if we don't pay attention to the power or noise or price issues and concentrate only on the FPS performance delivered,and while the GTX480 is faster overall,in practical terms,show me a single game where the end user would be playing a game smoothly at a given setting on the GTX480,where under the same settings,it wouldn't be playable with the HD5870 cards.


Keep in mind that playable for me means averaging 60 FPS or close to it,which ensures that dips into the 20~30 FPS range are few and far between,which definitely doesn't qualify as smooth by any standard when a given card hits FPS values that low,especially in fast paced first person shooters.


Based on the conclusions from a fair amount of reviews,the 10% average performance gap between the GTX480 and the HD5870 simply doesn't allow that to happen in practical terms....If it's too slow to be smooth by the HD5870 at extreme settings(read 30 FPS or lower average),then the overall situation isn't much better with the GTX480,even if it's 10 FPS faster,and many times on fair amount of games the gap isn't that large....It's still not enough of a performance gap between both basically.


The faster FPS argument for the sake of faster FPS doesn't work if there isn't practical benefits in the real world gaming experience....If going for the sake of faster benchmark numbers,then the GTX480 wins for sure over the HD5870.

[shadow001]

Originally Posted by Bee_Dee_3_Dee

The HD5970's drivers are maxed out and newer ones are not going to gain anymore performance for the card. But the GTX480 will keep improving performance for the next 4 to 20 weeks easily.

This one is for you,and don't pay attention to the performance boosts on the HD5*** cards,but rather on the HD4*** cards,which are almost 2 years old now....This is with the latest 10.3 driver sets.

Aliens vs. Predator

· Overall performance increases 5% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products

Battleforge

· Improves up to 8% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 3% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Call of Duty: World at War

· Improves up to 2% on ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series products
· Improves up to 6% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Company of Heroes

· Improves up to 6% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 3% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Crysis and Crysis Warhead

· Improves up to 6% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 2% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Devil May Cry 4

· Improves up to 10% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 6% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

DiRT 2

· Improves up to 30% on ATI Radeon HD 5970 graphics products
· Improves up to 20% on ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series and ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series products
· Improves up to 10% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Enemy Territory: Quake Wars

· Improves up to 5% on ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series products
· Improves up to 3% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 2% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Far Cry 2

· Improves up to 6% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 4% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2

· Improves up to 3% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. – Call of Pripyat Benchmark

· Improves up to 10% with Anti-Aliasing enabled on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. – Clear Sky

· Improves up to 2% with ATI Radeon HD 5970 graphics products
· Improves up to 2% on ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series products

Resident Evil 5

· Improves up to 5% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 3% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Tom Clancy’s H.A.W.X.

· Improves up to 15% with ATI Radeon HD 5970 graphics products
· Improves up to 20% on ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series products and ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series products
· Improves up to 3% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Unigine Tropics

· Improves up to 5% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products

World in Conflict

· Improves up to 5% on ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series products
· Improves up to 3% on ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series products
· Improves up to 5% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Wolfenstein

· Improves up to 4% on ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series products
· Improves up to 4% on ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series products

Even the performance on a 2 year old card still isn't maxed out yet,never mind cards that only have 6 months in them,so the driver performance argument is pretty moot,as both companies will keep on improving performance at the driver level.


The other point is that in 6 to 12 months from now,both companies will have much faster cards out on the market,maybe even built at 28nm and offering 50~100% better performance than the current Fermi or Cypress cards anyhow.


Will anyone care about this current generation by then?....I highly doubt it.

[Bee_Dee_3_Dee]

Originally Posted by Heinz68

Also useless question. The answer is I didn't bookmark any. There is a site that has 51 Reviews/Benchmarks listed, I'm sure there are more of them. I only did read few reviews on the major sites and few others "Conclusion" only. There is no need for me to read more, have no time for that.

Every site concluded that GTX 480 has the fastest GPU no argument about that. Did not see any site that concluded GTX 480 is the fastest Graphic Card. I think even some of the biggest NVIDIA shills would have hard time to argue that, so I don't know where are you coming from.

I hope this is end the argument at least for me.

Sry I should have asked, "How many GTX480 Reviews/Benchmarks have you Bookmarked?"

The reason that it is not a useless question is that you saying, "a site that has 51 Reviews/Benchmarks listed" exists doesn't tell me anything about how much you have actually looked at the numbers (GTX480 Reviews/Benchmarks) and read the reviews. The reviews are written by experts.

You're not more knowledgeable than the professional experts that write the GTX480 Reviews are you?

To continue on the question, if you had said you Bookmarked say, 10, 15, or maybe even 20, GTX480 Reviews/Benchmarks, I could understand just how odd it is that you think the GTX480 is loosing so much to the HD5970. Because it is not. And you may not have looked at enough Benchmarks to realize it.

I think looking at 10, GTX480 Reviews/Benchmarks, and studying them is an acceptable number. But if you don't read and study at least ten of them you can easily be unaware of the facts.

Now with that said, I will tell you that I have read 13, GTX480 Reviews/Benchmarks and I plan to collect many many more. Before I bought my GTX295 last year I read through and studied over 10 GTX295 Reviews/Benchmarks. And ended up with with a grand total 23.

Here's a post I made on 01-21-2009 with all 23, GTX295 Reviews/Benchmarks:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...&postcount=138

So, if you want to really prove that what you're saying is true, you need the numbers to back it up. Ever heard of the saying, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up ...period"?

Show some numbers and prove what you're claiming.

Because the numbers I'm looking at include the HD5970 loosing to the GTX480 in not just one Benchmark but several. And after the driver updates it's only going to get worse for the HD5970 and NOT better.