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Old 06-09-10, 07:11 AM   #13
nekrosoft13
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

you never own software, be it now, or 10 years ago.
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Old 06-09-10, 07:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

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you never own software, be it now, or 10 years ago.
I'd like to see Bethesda come take Fallout 3 away from me.

It's such a tired argument to say the fine print has always said license. There is a massive difference between classifying something as a license to maintain your copyright and actively treating it like a license and preventing consumer rights. Unless you are completely retarded you know that.
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Old 06-09-10, 08:45 AM   #15
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

I agree with Velvet, but there won't be any real revolt. For some kind of a revolt to happen something majorly bad would have to happen to a bunch of legitimate users by an error or bug in the system. It would have to be on the same scale as starforce that had various problems with more than a few systems. Unfortunately steam is quite convenient and has offline play capabilities for many of it's games so there won't be much outrage. Unlike Ubi's DRM which has a lot of people detesting it because of the inability to play off line, which to me is a significantly bigger issue than steam's account based DRM.
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Old 06-09-10, 09:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

Is this game still on track to get me in tons of arguments with my wife in late 2010? I sure hope so.... I need a new rpg.
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Old 06-09-10, 11:29 AM   #17
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

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Is this game still on track to get me in tons of arguments with my wife in late 2010? I sure hope so.... I need a new rpg.
lol, too true. "You spend more time on your computer than you do with me."
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Old 06-09-10, 11:51 AM   #18
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

I find this preferable to GFWL. No drm would have been better of course.
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Old 06-09-10, 11:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

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You didn't have to with FO3 either, the DLC was DRM-free as well.

The long and short of it is we went from DRM-free to online authentication and account-based DRM. I don't care if you like it, that sucks and is a bad sign for the future of PC DRM.
I don't get your resistance to Steam or what you call account-based DRM.. it seems to provide a super service as far as making your games available on every computer on earth + option for local storage/backup + auto patching + steam cloud storing settings and/or savegames is the future. Really the only reason one wouldn't like "account based DRM" is if one enjoys borrowing out his game to his friends all the time, which as far as I'm concerned isn't what one payed for - you only payed to play the product yourself although for unlimited time, indefinitely - which is exactly what you're getting with Steam (at least until the world comes to an end ).

If you're worried that Steam will shut down, this seems extremely unlikely, and they'd sure be taked over by other companies/people before that and they'd know to let customers keep playing their legally purchased games otherwise they'd be buying a dead horse - but even in the case of it happening, I'm very 99,9% sure that they would unlock all the users games for free use indefintely and in case of that not happening I'm 100% sure that hackers/crackers would find a way to play your legitimately owned games. What do you want, physical media? People in 10 years will laugh at the very thought of continuing use of physical media, it is so much more practical in every way to have digital distribution with cloud based systems. Valve has found the one model that works and that will work for films and music too: provide a good service and people will buy (though in the case og films/music it's much simpler and they don't have to provide auto patching, community services etc., but rather fast delivery, good quality, and fair price). I must admit that I'd rather have the owner of Steam be some kind of independent organization supported by some kind of huge games developer alliance, but if it has be a single firm, I'm glad it's Valve.

Disliking the whole concept of Steam (without extra DRM such as SecuRom, install limitations etc.) seems old-fashioned and paranoid to me



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It's happened to me a few times... not common, but it happens. Steam as a program ain't bad, sometimes I leave it on simply as a chat program for days at a time.

My issues with Steamworks are much more rooted in principle over how we purchase and own software than anything with the program itself. I just don't like asking a company for permission to use something I bought... imagine if a DVD made you do that, or even a console game. It's coming to these other mediums, more popular mediums than PC games, and I look forward to finally seeing a revolt when it does.

Or not
I have no idea what you're talking about. I never ask Steam if I can play my games. I log on and play. If the servers are too busy (which has only happened a handful of times for me, and it always worked when I tried launching just a few seconds later), it's just a question of server capacity will i'm sure will improve with as the service expands. I can run Steam in offline mode and play a far majority of my games. The very few games I can't play in offline mode, I blame the publishers/developers of the game, not Steam, because I'm sure those are the ones dictating the terms on Steam, just like they dictate additional DRM and price for that matter. These things are not Steam's fault. And as more developers realize this such limitations will slowly disappear and eventually and hopefully, completely.
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Old 06-09-10, 11:58 AM   #20
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

I think if you buy it you can dig it out of your appdata folder somewhere then just run the content like a mod.
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Old 06-09-10, 12:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

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I think if you buy it you can dig it out of your appdata folder somewhere then just run the content like a mod.
yap, i did that, just copy to fallout 3 directly, and enable content under mod.

had to move it from C to game drive, since C was a small partition, i didn't need 4-5GB of fallout stuff on it, plus because GFW Live monkeys created the other drive bug, and game would not recognize DLC content if game was installed on other partition then C.
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Old 06-09-10, 03:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

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I have no idea what you're talking about. I never ask Steam if I can play my games. I log on and play.
That made me chuckle.

Look guys, I don't want this to define my freaking existence on this board. I don't want to endlessly debate it either. The fact is I prefer DRM-free games like Mass Effect 2 to games that tie themselves to an account and need the internet to install. That's me, that's what I want and what I care about. I see a day when there is no used market, possibly no retail boxed market, and that upsets me, because I believe in buying a game and never having to say please in order to play it.

As I said on the Bethesda forums, imagine buying a DVD of The Dark Knight and getting home and having to activate your movie online, then having to assign it to your Warner Bros. account, making it never work for anyone else again. The mass market would not accept such a thing, but with PC games I am supposed to accept it AND be happy about it I guess. Well I'm not.

There are also other factors at play... you might not notice since you guys mostly just shop on Steam, but Amazon is cheaper. A lot cheaper, often. I got Splinter Cell Conviction for $40, Alpha Protocol for $34, Prince of Persia 2010 for $25 and those are all shipped prices. Amazon is extremely rewarding for loyal customers, as well as just having lower prices to begin with. Even old games, things people flip-out over on weekend deals, are often just as low on amazon... I just got Death to Spies 2 for $5, which would have been a cool weekend deal if I was still in love with Steam.

Also, as Magus can attest, I love boxes. I sold all my boxes in 2002 or so when I "got out of gaming" and now I am building my collection back up. I have two nice DVD racks from Target and I line my games up and I think it's cool to collect them like that.

So there are a lot of reasons I have "turned against Steam." I'm glad many of you are fans of it and welcome the digital delivery age... I do not. Let's stop focusing so much on this decision of mine though, seriously... people are allowed to have a difference of opinion, and last I checked digital delivery was reported to be 30% of the PC gaming market, not 90%, so it's not like I am way out on the niche limb for all to gawk at.
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Old 06-09-10, 04:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

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Originally Posted by NarcissistZero View Post
That made me chuckle.

Look guys, I don't want this to define my freaking existence on this board. I don't want to endlessly debate it either. The fact is I prefer DRM-free games like Mass Effect 2 to games that tie themselves to an account and need the internet to install. That's me, that's what I want and what I care about. I see a day when there is no used market, possibly no retail boxed market, and that upsets me, because I believe in buying a game and never having to say please in order to play it.

As I said on the Bethesda forums, imagine buying a DVD of The Dark Knight and getting home and having to activate your movie online, then having to assign it to your Warner Bros. account, making it never work for anyone else again. The mass market would not accept such a thing, but with PC games I am supposed to accept it AND be happy about it I guess. Well I'm not.

There are also other factors at play... you might not notice since you guys mostly just shop on Steam, but Amazon is cheaper. A lot cheaper, often. I got Splinter Cell Conviction for $40, Alpha Protocol for $34, Prince of Persia 2010 for $25 and those are all shipped prices. Amazon is extremely rewarding for loyal customers, as well as just having lower prices to begin with. Even old games, things people flip-out over on weekend deals, are often just as low on amazon... I just got Death to Spies 2 for $5, which would have been a cool weekend deal if I was still in love with Steam.

Also, as Magus can attest, I love boxes. I sold all my boxes in 2002 or so when I "got out of gaming" and now I am building my collection back up. I have two nice DVD racks from Target and I line my games up and I think it's cool to collect them like that.

So there are a lot of reasons I have "turned against Steam." I'm glad many of you are fans of it and welcome the digital delivery age... I do not. Let's stop focusing so much on this decision of mine though, seriously... people are allowed to have a difference of opinion, and last I checked digital delivery was reported to be 30% of the PC gaming market, not 90%, so it's not like I am way out on the niche limb for all to gawk at.
If you weren't so busy chuckling over my first sentence, you may have actually bothered to read the rest of my post. I can play all of my Steam games in offline mode, except perhaps one or two and I don't even remember which (and it may have been fixed by now). I don't know how ME2 works, but I can play ME1 fine in offline mode. Again, you seem to have the impression that you only rent games through steam; no you own them and you can play them as much as you want for as long as you want as often as you want to.

My friends can try a game at my place and see if they like it and then buy it themselves if they do. I really don't see why I should have the right to borrow out my game left and right and have my friends play a bunch of games, but not pay for it.

I don't buy the DVD argument; Movies also have a huge income at movie cinema's, developers only really have one source of income for games: the private persons who buys them for private use. Besides when I buy Blurays, I often pay 2-4x as much as it would cost to rent them. I consider that extra money spend towards the possibility of me lending it to friends or family. If you absolutely want this, the prices for digital copies should stay the same, while the price for retail copies should be 2-4x the price of account-unique digital copies - however that's not going to happen for historical and practical reasons.
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Old 06-09-10, 05:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: Fallout Vegas is Steamworks

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If you weren't so busy chuckling over my first sentence, you may have actually bothered to read the rest of my post.
I read your post, it was mostly ignorant of the facts, so I chose not to respond. Since you are pushing the issue though...

Quote:
I can play all of my Steam games in offline mode, except perhaps one or two and I don't even remember which (and it may have been fixed by now). I don't know how ME2 works, but I can play ME1 fine in offline mode.
Offline mode is only needed because you have to be online to install the game in the first place. With DRM free or disc-check only games, I do not have to ask permission to play the game I bought. That is the difference.

Quote:
Again, you seem to have the impression that you only rent games through steam; no you own them and you can play them as much as you want for as long as you want as often as you want to.
As long as Valve says it is okay.

You own nothing on Steam, they make it quite clear in the terms of service that you agree to every time you buy something. You are an account subscriber and every game you buy is a license added to your account. You own nothing, you don't even own the account itself. You cannot sell it, you cannot even give it away. Valve can take it from you at any time for any reason they see fit.

Quote:
My friends can try a game at my place and see if they like it and then buy it themselves if they do. I really don't see why I should have the right to borrow out my game left and right and have my friends play a bunch of games, but not pay for it.
I don't really like the idea of lending games out so my friends don't have to pay for them either, so I encourage my friends to support the developers and pay up. That is my choice though... forcing it on me through invasive restrictions on a game I purchased in a store and own physically is too far against consumer rights for me to accept happily though.

Quote:
I don't buy the DVD argument; Movies also have a huge income at movie cinema's, developers only really have one source of income for games: the private persons who buys them for private use. Besides when I buy Blurays, I often pay 2-4x as much as it would cost to rent them. I consider that extra money spend towards the possibility of me lending it to friends or family. If you absolutely want this, the prices for digital copies should stay the same, while the price for retail copies should be 2-4x the price of account-unique digital copies - however that's not going to happen for historical and practical reasons.
I don't know what your point is here... you act like movies are different, but they are not. Movies are headed in the same direction as Steam with services like Netflix. One day, if consumers keep accepting it, movies will never be owned either and instead be account-based and streamed only, or what-have-you. Whether there is a revolt or not likely depends on how well they camouflage the loss of consumer rights with almost insignificant community features and ease of access, like Steam has done.

I can tell you one thing, when a more mainstream medium encounters these issues there will be a lot more talk about it.
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