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Old 06-20-10, 10:11 PM   #13
Slytat
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
The logic of this entire thing is pretty simple.

Can the GTX480 be cooled to the temps of the 5870 and under? Sure. Slap a massive heatsink or a waterblock on it and watch the temps nose dive.

So what? Trying to accurately gauge temps of a GPU based on whatever heatsink it has is useless. The heatsink, case, fan speed and ambient temps will differ a hundred times over between users. This is why you should base how warm a GPU runs on something concrete like its power usage because that is an independent variable that is constant.

These last cards from Nvidia are good performers, but I, like Madpistol, am sick of seeing people pull any argument that they can out of their &#^ trying to justify the temps. It is the highest power-drawing single-GPU card ever; therefore it is the hottest running single GPU ever. It's as simple as that. Any arguments against this are simply rhetoric and aren't based in fact.

In addition to that, take a look at Nvidia's stock. Their stock has taken a nose dive since Fermi released because investors know that AMD's latest line of GPUs are more power efficient and priced better and have sold better. Are they better? No, not for everyone (and not for me, because I think their drivers suck) but for the mainstream, yes, because of the above reasons (power usage and price.)

Nvidia's stock has lost 6$ a share (50%) since April, Fermi's release:



http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ta?s=NVDA...+Analysis&t=6m

Anyone who cares to look at 5870 vs 480 logically (I'm not talking about you Nvidia fanboys who fail to ever see anything that Nvidia does wrong) just needs to accept that AMD offered the better product this time around. This is how it's viewed on Wall Street, and this is how it is in reality. Nvidia's saving grace at this point are their drivers and their feature set, but unfortunately for them, only the true enthusiast crowd seems to care about these. Not the mainstream.
Have to agree with this, ATI is definitely more appealing to mainstream users for obvious reasons. I don't know why people always have to turn it into an argument. They are both great and competition is a GOOD thing. Enjoy whatever you buy and don't worry about what anyone else thinks. As long as you are happy, that's all that matters
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Old 06-20-10, 10:57 PM   #14
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

Exactly.

People should just learn to like what they like without worrying so much about what the public thinks about it. The problem today is people rely on the public to tell them what they should or shouldn't like.

For example, I could care less if the public (Wall Street) tells me which GPU is better, 5870 or 480, simply because I've had bad personal experiences with ATI's drivers in regards to Eyefinity 5-series and am sick of them. Therefore, I'd prefer to have an Nvidia card or card(s) in my rig at the moment for their drivers or feature set. Madpistol, on the other hand, may have had a different experience and appears to be so since he likes his card.

We all purchase what we purchase because of our own preferences, yet some of us get so riled up trying to defend that purchase as if our lives depend on it--even to the point of being completely illogical, like trying to defend temps on a GPU (480) that sucks down more power than a double-GPU card (5970) instead of focusing on its positives.

Fermi's a great performer, has a great feature set (3D especially intrigues me) and great drivers/customer support. There are plenty of things to focus on other than its power usage/heat if you're an enthusiast.
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Old 06-20-10, 10:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
The logic of this entire thing is pretty simple.

Can the GTX480 be cooled to the temps of the 5870 and under? Sure. Slap a massive heatsink or a waterblock on it and watch the temps nose dive.
Actually, I put my GTX480SLi in a HAF932 case I bought at newegg for $139, and guess what? I'm playing Metro2033 with huge loads on the GPUs with temps holding steady at 84-86C and the fans at 64-67%. Not a huge price to pay for the level of performance I get over any two ATi cpus, is it? Of course, when I play Metro, I get PhysX and 3d Vision as well, so it's not really a fair comparison. The game looks a LOT better with these features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
These last cards from Nvidia are good performers, but I, like Madpistol, am sick of seeing people pull any argument that they can out of their &#^ trying to justify the temps. It is the highest power-drawing single-GPU card ever; therefore it is the hottest running single GPU ever. It's as simple as that. Any arguments against this are simply rhetoric and aren't based in fact.
What rhetoric? I can post my GPU-Z showing the GPUS maxed and the temps in the mid 80s, doesn't get anymore "fact" than that. Of course that's Metro at some pretty extreme settings, almost any other game would be running cooler and at lower fan speeds. Like I said, why do ATi fans always talk about people burning themselves on heatpipes when most of us couldn't touch our video cards if we wanted to? Or why do ATi fans seem to only care about synthetic benches that very few games can approach in terms of CPU load?

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Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
In addition to that, take a look at Nvidia's stock.
You mean the stock that sells for 50% higher price than AMD stock, that makes NVIDIA itself worth more than AMD and ATi combined?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
Anyone who cares to look at 5870 vs 480 logically (I'm not talking about you Nvidia fanboys who fail to ever see anything that Nvidia does wrong) just needs to accept that AMD offered the better product this time around. .
I have to respectfully disagree- the GTX480 offers much better DX11 and AA performance, and better performance in general. Someday ATi may equal them, but until then, performance oriented individuals only have one choice.
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Old 06-20-10, 11:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

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Originally Posted by Rollo
What rhetoric?
Practically everything that you posted above is a pretty good example.

The point is not what the GPUs run at in your system. You clearly did not comprehend any of my last post.

Attempting to gauge how hot a GPU runs is pointless if you're basing it on a dependent variable such as a heatsink, fan speed, case, ambient temps such as what you're doing. These will always differ between users which is why you have some people here reporting different temps than what you see in benchmarks from different review sites. Users own different cases, run their thermostats at different settings, run different drivers that control fan speeds on the cards differently, etc. These dependent variables all change the ultimate outcome. All of these variables make it impossible to build or sustain an argument about how how hot a GPU runs because there is no standardization involved.

To judge how hot a GPU runs, you simply look to a standardized measure which we have in power consumption and heat conversion:

Quote:
In physics and thermodynamics, heat is the process of energy transfer from one body or system due to thermal contact...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat

Quote:
Power consumption is the "correct" unit of heat dissipation.

...We shall take power consumption for their heat dissipation measure (see above). Moreover, power consumption turns out a much more flexible characteristic in this respect, because it allows to quickly obtain precise data on heat dissipation...
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/storage/hddpower.html

Where do you think all that power goes that runs from your wall socket, into your PSU, and into your Fermis? It's converted into heat. That's a constant, scientific measure that does not change. Measure the power consumption and you have the heat output.

Quote:
You mean the stock that sells for 50% higher price than AMD stock, that makes NVIDIA itself worth more than AMD and ATi combined?
Firstly, it's not 50% higher than AMD. AMD is at nearly 9$ share at the moment, and Nvidia is at 12. 3/9 is 33%. Go back to kindergarten and learn your math.

Secondly, AMD has been in debt for the last few years which always tanks a stock. What's Nvidia's excuse if not the disappointment from the investor crowd in Fermi? There is no debt on Nvidia's balance sheet and the drop in their stock price coincides perfectly with Fermi's launch.

Quote:
I have to respectfully disagree- the GTX480 offers much better DX11 and AA performance, and better performance in general. Someday ATi may equal them, but until then, performance oriented individuals only have one choice.
Go argue with Wall Street, pal. Clearly you know better than the pros do.
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Old 06-21-10, 02:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

Rollo, while I may agree with you on many points, Xion is an objective poster.

I've had disagreements with him myself, but he is not some crazed ATI zealot, he paints things in a pretty realistic light.

For Nvidia to be the clear cut winner, they would have to beat ATI with regards to heat and power consumption, which they clearly do not. I'll be the first to admit that the 480 is the fastest card, but only with an eye to the enthusiast market when you take everything else into consideration.

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Old 06-21-10, 06:42 AM   #18
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

Xion:
1. Not everyone cares a 480 uses 100W more than 5870. My smallest PSU is 950W, my cases are Cosmos 1010, HAF932, FT01. Electricity is $.09/KWh where I live, so every ten hours I game on a GTX480 costs me less then a dime more than it would on 5870. Errrr...I have plenty of dimes.

2. First you say the price of the stock is the only guage of how good a product is, then you say it's affected by other factors? If we're going to go by the price of the stock, take a look at the price of AMD stock since they bought ATi. Has the stock price judged that all ATi products are so poor that they've lowered the value of much larger AMD/ATi to lower than NVIDIA? Can't say stock price applies to one and not the other. Other factors, like lawsuits and recession, affect stock price.
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Old 06-21-10, 07:01 AM   #19
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...ht=2900&page=3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
Obviously. But it doesn't change the fact that good cooling on a 2900, along with ATI Tool's volt-modding capability, turn it into a good performer with the headroom it has. Anyone willing to spend 400-500$ on a graphics card can usually afford a few good fans or watercooling.
Xion, I find it interesting that when an ATi card like the 2900 is being used you'll add power by volt modding, and don't mind adding fans or water.

Yet here you are arguing about people using good cases and water to cool GTX480s and the cards using more power. You must have become a more eco-friendly Xion since that post!

And of course the 2900 was 8db louder at load than a 8800GTX, but you had no problem telling the OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
Can't go wrong with either the XT or the GTX. The 2900XT is a great card in its own right, but don't expect to hear that response from too many on an nvidia fansite.

I've had both the GTX & XT and still find the performance of the XT to be pretty good. Especially if you volt-mod it like I have mine.
So you'll use more power, cooling and put up with a lot more noise when it's an ATi product in question apparently.

Here's the 8db louder source:
http://techreport.com/articles.x/12458/15

So why is that Xion?
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Old 06-21-10, 08:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

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Break open a newspaper. Let me give you a hint: Law suit between Intel and Nvidia. Issue is motherboards. ION in particular. This happened at same time as Fermi launch. Fermi and gaming grade GPUS are not that large a market. Other things like Tegra are becoming way more important.
That happened back in February, Darth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC Q110 Financial Statement
On February 17, 2009, Intel Corporation filed suit against NVIDIA Corporation, seeking declaratory and injunctive relief relating to a
license agreement that the parties signed in 2004.
If you check the 6-month trending graph that I posted above, the stock did not begin its decline until mid-latter April after Fermi released and Nvidia downgraded its guidance going into next quarter.

And although Nvidia is in a few different sectors (workstation graphics, smart phones, etc) the "gaming" GPU market still makes up a significant portion of Nvidia's net income. Do you not think that if they had released a GPU that's been as widely sold as 5870 that it would've made a difference? AMD netted nearly 300 million in net income last quarter due to its GPU sector, about 30% of its overall earnings for the quarter.
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Old 06-21-10, 08:21 AM   #21
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

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Xion:
1. Not everyone cares a 480 uses 100W more than 5870.
I'm not talking about "everyone," you dolt. I specifically emphasized that in my first post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion X2
Are they better [AMD's GPUs]? No, not for everyone (and not for me, because I think their drivers suck) but for the mainstream, yes, because of the above reasons (power usage and price.)
I am not talking about the enthusiast crowd like you and I. WE BOTH prefer Nvidia in this specific case. You for your own reasons and me because I've ran into issues with AMD's drivers recently.

That doesn't change the fact that the enthusiast crowd makes up the MINORITY. The mainstream crowd makes up the MAJORITY.

Quote:
2. First you say the price of the stock is the only guage of how good a product is
No, I didn't say that. And once again, in regards to AMD's stock price, it's very simple. You are never going to have a high priced stock when a company has been in debt going on multiple years straight. Most people know how to read a balance sheet.

If, however, you still want to gauge AMD's stock price against Nvidia's stock price during the launch period of Fermi, then look at the trending of both since Fermi released. AMD has dropped just 1$/share and Nvidia has dropped 6$/share during a period of relative stability in the economy. What does that tell you?

The "lawsuits" that you and Darth mention happened two months before the stock dropped. This did not impact the stock, otherwise you would have seen the drop coincide with that announcement back in February. Instead, it concided with Fermi's release and Nvidia's drop in guidance for Q2 with investors.
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Old 06-21-10, 08:26 AM   #22
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...ht=2900&page=3



Xion, I find it interesting that when an ATi card like the 2900 is being used you'll add power by volt modding, and don't mind adding fans or water.
You're going to pull something from 3 years ago to argue with?

How desperate can one be?

Yes, because people's opinions don't tend to change at all over periods of three or four years, do they?

The 2900XT was a crap card which is why I traded it in on an 8800 Ultra. I can pull past posts of me saying so if you want to go down this road. I'd advise you not to go there, though. I even wrote a review of it on here where I benched both cards against each other.

Also, do you realize that you're arguing with someone who will shortly have two 470s on water? DangerDen is sending me two 470 blocks as we speak.
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Old 06-21-10, 09:21 AM   #23
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

Here is how I see things and I came from a 5870 crossfire setup then a single 5870.

The article is well written the test setup is pretty close to what most of us would normally run in a closed case as enthusiasts.

I think for those that are on the fence with regards to a 5000 series AMD product or a Fermi this paints a better and clearer picture.

The arguments about heat and power consumption are important and I was one who took a very close look at this and was very serious about it, but like anything it’s subjective.

I held onto my 5870 when I purchased the 480 after testing and playing a bunch of game titles I was very happy with the results the 480 gave me so I decided in keeping the 480 and sold the 5870.

I personally had some issues with AMD cat drivers and was happy to once again have an Nvidia product in my box not for PhysX or Cuda or anything else simply for gaming, and good working drivers out of the box.

I don’t have the time to mod drivers wait on a fix then have next months driver break the fix then come out with a hot fix etc. In this Nvidia wins and is why I am currently using a Fermi this time around the extra power consumption and heat I was concerned about was not that big a deal and with the MSI Afterburner program and setting profiles I am quite happy.
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Old 06-21-10, 09:36 AM   #24
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Default Re: B3D GTX-480 Thermal Study

Guys, this is the first, last and ONLY warning. Keep this topic civil and respectful.
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