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Old 02-02-11, 06:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
I agree. 6970's by themselves aren't weak, and in Crossfire, they're pretty frikin good.

The GTX 580 is better, and it's more expensive. The GTX 570 is about the same as the 6970, but it can't drive more than 2 monitors by itself (compared to the 4 monitors a 6970 can drive). Also, 2GB framebuffer ensures that the cards can perform at high resolutions, especially in crossfire.

Come on Rollo... try harder.
Actually I think you guys are the ones who should try harder. Why on Earth would a guy who spent $3000 plus to have the best of best monitor set up settle for any cheap ATi stuff?

He's obviously not poor, so that rules out the "Jinkies I could save a few hundred bucks!" argument.

We all know that the 6970s aren't just slower at DX11, but they're slower at everything else, and it could well be that running 75X16 taxes a video card more than anything else would.

There are no VRAM use graphs for his res that I know of, but as higher res means higher VRAM use, it's probably safe to say that having 50% more VRAM per GPU on the 580s could conceivably have benefits.

No hardware accelerated physics for him with the 6970s, worse multicard drivers.

If you're think Slawter cares about saving $500 on graphics and is willing to compromise on perfromance and all of the above to do it, after spending $3K+ on monitors I don't know what else I can say.

A guy I work with put it well: When you buy the best thing of whatever it is you're buying, you never want anything else.
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Old 02-02-11, 06:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

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No hardware accelerated physics for him with the 6970s, worse multicard drivers.
Didn't you just post a thread about how you had a bunch of problems with SLI/multicard NV...? LOL.
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Old 02-02-11, 06:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Actually I think you guys are the ones who should try harder. Why on Earth would a guy who spent $3000 plus to have the best of best monitor set up settle for any cheap ATi stuff?
Lets start with this article: http://www.hardwareheaven.com/review...roduction.html

I'm thinking I would buy a couple of HD 6970's based on this article, regardless of the price. The fact that each card is roughly $120 cheaper is simply icing on the cake.

Yea, you can throw on the whole "1 powerful card is better than 2 mediocre cards" But, when you throw on 2 of each card, the HD 6970 earns its stripes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
He's obviously not poor, so that rules out the "Jinkies I could save a few hundred bucks!" argument.
Not saying he's poor, but why spend money when you don't need to? Why buy 2 GTX 580's when you can buy 2 HD 6970's, save $240, and have a faster setup?

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
We all know that the 6970s aren't just slower at DX11, but they're slower at everything else, and it could well be that running 75X16 taxes a video card more than anything else would.
Read the article. As a single card, they're slower, but as soon as you saturate that VRAM with a crossfire setup at higher resolutions and multi-monitor, the HD 6970 pulls ahead. For the Uber enthusiast, AMD has hit a home run.

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
There are no VRAM use graphs for his res that I know of, but as higher res means higher VRAM use, it's probably safe to say that having 50% more VRAM per GPU on the 580s could conceivably have benefits.
WTF? The 6970's have more VRAM. At lower resolutions and in single card setups, yea, the GTX 580 is going to win. No one in their right mind uses a lower resolution monitor for a single GTX 580, though.

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No hardware accelerated physics for him with the 6970s, worse multicard drivers.
Hardware physics is STILL a gimmick. About 2% of games out uses hardware accelerated physics. Even less use it well. I'm pretty sure the 11.1's fixed those outstanding issues too. Now you're just digging, searching for a bone.

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If you're think Slawter cares about saving $500 on graphics and is willing to compromise on perfromance and all of the above to do it, after spending $3K+ on monitors I don't know what else I can say.
Compromises? I guess... in your mind. I'm not seeing any compromises from that article.

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
A guy I work with put it well: When you buy the best thing of whatever it is you're buying, you never want anything else.
Too bad the best (GTX 580) doesn't scale the best in multi-card setups. I guess that makes the HD 6970 the best in that regard. Nothing like getting the better value out of a high-end card. Who says an extra 512mb of vRAM doesn't help?

Keep trying. You've got to earn that paycheck from nvidia.
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Old 02-02-11, 06:28 PM   #16
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

I bet if someone made a thread asking if a gt240 was better than a 6970 Rollo would say get the gt240.
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Old 02-02-11, 06:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

Yep. The 6970 might be faster, but the GT 240 can do PhysX and CUDA. That makes the GT240 better.
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Old 02-02-11, 06:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

I don't comment on articles by Hardware Heaven, SemiAccurate, or AMDZone- because the bias always has been, and always will be there.

I'm talking about the 3gb GTX580s by Gainward and Palit, not the 1.5GB ones. If you think a pair of 6970s will out perform them, well, sucks to be you I guess.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-098-_-Product

You're basically comparing a Hyundai to a BMW, and yelling "He might want to save money!".

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Old 02-02-11, 07:06 PM   #19
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I bet if someone made a thread asking if a gt240 was better than a 6970 Rollo would say get the gt240.
Instead of making ridiculous suppositions, why not try to disprove something I've posted.

Facts are facts: the 3GB GTX580s are simply a more reasonable buy for a person running 75 X16 resolution on the basis of their 50% higher VRAM alone.

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...eview_-_Page_3

VRAM use at 60X12 4XAA at AVP at 1.8GB, and that's a much lower res than Slawter is running. Still thinking 2GB is the way to go for the guy I was speaking too?

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...view_-_Page_13

Wow, Stalker uses 1.8GB of VRAM at 60X16 4X too. Gee those "great" 6970s have a whole .2GB to spare to run that much higher res, but those magic 6970s can pull it off!

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...view_-_Page_12

And Need for Speed Shift at 1.7GB, what a trend!

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...view_-_Page_11

JC2 at 1.9GB at the lower res with some higher AA, but that .1GB the 6970s are packing would surely have him covered at 75X16.

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...eview_-_Page_8

Huh, even FC2 at the lower res at 1.8GB VRAM use, and at 8X AA at the 2GB a lowly 6970 has.

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...eview_-_Page_7

And Dirt 2 at the same 1.8 and 2GB VRAM use at the much lower res.

Here's the thing: I'm just RIGHT. You guys can yell about "value" and link to the review sites that go out of their way to find a game and setting where the ATi card wins, but not one thing you can say trumps the above.

The guy I was talking to (Slawter) has a 75X16 rig. 6970s have 2GB of RAM. I just proved beyond a shadow of doubt that if he wants to use some AA 6970s don't have enough VRAM to do the job.

So what's next? Are you going to post "Maybe he wants to run the montors he recently spent over $3000 at lower resolutions so he can save $500 on his graphics!"

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Old 02-02-11, 10:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

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I don't comment on articles by Hardware Heaven, SemiAccurate, or AMDZone- because the bias always has been, and always will be there.

I'm talking about the 3gb GTX580s by Gainward and Palit, not the 1.5GB ones. If you think a pair of 6970s will out perform them, well, sucks to be you I guess.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-098-_-Product

You're basically comparing a Hyundai to a BMW, and yelling "He might want to save money!".

You're comparing a $600 card to a $380 card? What have you been smoking lately?

Discrediting my evidence simply because you think those sites are AMD biased? What about all the other sites that are Nvidia biased? It works both ways, bud. You seriously think that because you don't like the site that you can suddenly throw the evidence out? Nope, doesn't work that way. The site is credible, and the evidence is the results of testing in a controlled setting that is designed to NOT play favoritism toward one brand or another. You want to play Nvidia fanboy? That's fine. I could care less about all the hardware you get for painting your face green, and then getting on these forums and making yourself look like God's gift to the internet simply because you get free hardware. What a sorry life you live.

And then you use evidence from widesceengamingforum.com as your rebuttal? And you're STILL comparing a $600 card to a $380 card. If the $600 card doesn't win, something is wrong. Too bad Nvidia's reference board doesn't have 3GB of memory. Otherwise, it might have been the champ in multi-GPU. Instead, it ties in some cases, and flat out loses in others to a less expensive card from a company that you like to call the Hyundai of video card manufacturers. News flash... there's only 2 major competitors in this segment. Your logic is flawed to the point of near insanity if you think that is accurate. A more reasonable comparison might be Audi vs. BMW. Funny enough, Audi's new A4's seem to have stolen the show from BMW's 3 series.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

If AMD is so much LOWER than Nvidia at the moment, why does AMD have the 2 top cards in the DX11 category? In fact, AMD has a lot more DX11 cards than Nvidia. From what I can tell, that means AMD controls the market at the moment. Funny how times change. Nvidia won DX10, but AMD is winning DX11. Sales numbers don't lie, and Nvidia is still recovering from their GF100 fiasco.

Keep touting a $600 card... It's ok. That's a lot of money for a single-GPU video card. You can buy a couple of HD 6950's for that price and absolutely CRUSH a 3GB GTX 580. Who in their right mind would EVER buy a 3GB GTX 580? What a waste of money.

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Here's the thing: I'm just RIGHT. You guys can yell about "value" and link to the review sites that go out of their way to find a game and setting where the ATi card wins, but not one thing you can say trumps the above.
Here's one thing that trumps what you say: Value dictates the market.
Here's something else: Your "evidence" is using a 2GB GTX 460. The 2GB HD 6950 and 6970 are both faster and use their resources better.

All you're proving is that a couple HD 6970's in Crossfire, with 2GB of framebuffer each, is a better deal than a couple GTX 580's in SLI, each with 1.5GB of framebuffer. I don't think the 3GB GTX 580 falls into this category because it's $600. That's roughly 40% more expensive than the HD 6970 2GB, yet the performance difference between the 1.5GB GTX 580 and the 3GB GTX 580 in high resolution game play is marginal. It's like saying that a Geforce 9500 GT with 1GB framebuffer is superior to a GTX 460 with 768mb framebuffer. Memory means NOTHING unless you've got the architecture to handle it. Your evidence shows that games benefit from 2GB of framebuffer at super high resolutions. Sweet! I'll have 2 HD 6970's please. They're the clear winner in multi-monitor situations. I'll gladly take the faster system than a single 3GB GTX 580.

If everybody was willing to pay $600 for a 3GB GTX 580, Nvidia would be owning the market.... IF... but that doesn't matter. All that matters is what people ARE going to buy, and a 3GB GTX 580 will always be an uber enthusiast product that will only sell a handful of units. Get it? This is simple:

3GB GTX 580: $600
2x HD 6950 2GB: $600 - this one is A LOT faster.

Keep trying tRollo. You might have a break through soon.
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Old 02-02-11, 10:30 PM   #21
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meh nothing wrong with Hyundai any more. They actually make some nice cars now.
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Old 02-03-11, 06:31 AM   #22
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You're comparing a $600 card to a $380 card? What have you been smoking lately?
I'm smpoking the stuff that makes me able to see what the only reasonable recommandation is to a guy who is trying to run three 25X16 monitors. You're apparently smoking the stuff that makes you think 6970s are a good solution for a best of best rig that needs more VRAM than they actually have. I'll stick with my brand.

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
Discrediting my evidence simply because you think those sites are AMD biased?
Let's not forget that your "evidence" used a NVIDIA card I wasn't recommending and you didn't realize NVIDIA cards exist that make the 2GB framebuffer on the 6970 seem small.

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
The site is credible, and the evidence is the results of testing in a controlled setting that is designed to NOT play favoritism toward one brand or another.
Back when I used to read Driver Heaven, they were doing things like having contests to decide how to flamboyantly destroy high end NVIDIA cards to amuse the ATi fanboys who make up their readers.
On the top of their site is a banner that says "Click here to visit our AMD center!" Yeah, they are not biased.

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You want to play Nvidia fanboy? That's fine. I could care less about all the hardware you get for painting your face green, and then getting on these forums and making yourself look like God's gift to the internet simply because you get free hardware.
Why would you care who I have press privileges with? In the context of this thread, your only concern should be whether my advice was valid. Given my links to VRAM usage at resolutions far below what the buyer has, it's pretty obvious it was. You yelling "But that core mated to 1.5GB of VRAM can be slower than an ATi card with 2GB of VRAM, those NVIDIA cards with 3GB are too expensive!" isn't helping. People willing to spend $3K on monitors aren't pinching pennies and making sacrifices.

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
What a sorry life you live.
I'm not going to go into what my life is, but my guess is a most people would trade me.

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
And then you use evidence from widesceengamingforum.com as your rebuttal? And you're STILL comparing a $600 card to a $380 card. If the $600 card doesn't win, something is wrong. Too bad Nvidia's reference board doesn't have 3GB of memory.
Too bad you fail at the "logic". NVIDIA's reference design targets 99% of buyers and wins for them. For the person I was talking to, the 3GB version of the GTX580 is really the only option he has for best performance.

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
Otherwise, it might have been the champ in multi-GPU. Instead, it ties in some cases, and flat out loses in others to a less expensive card from a company that you like to call the Hyundai of video card manufacturers.
But we're not talking about their reference design. What's next from you- "The 6850 beats a GTX240 so he should buy that!"
As far as reference designs go, I'd take NVIDIA's PhysX, 3d Vision, new games launching with SLi profiles instead of waiting, and the ability to write my own profiles over ATi's ability to run 8X AA better at 57X10 on some games any day. ATi tries to follow in NVIDIA's footsteps with their high school science project 3d and by begging devs to use OpenVCL w/o their support, but fall short as always.

[quote=Madpistol;2386792]
News flash... there's only 2 major competitors in this segment. Your logic is flawed to the point of near insanity if you think that is accurate. A more reasonable comparison might be Audi vs. BMW. Funny enough, Audi's new A4's seem to have stolen the show from BMW's 3 series.[/qupote]
Being one of two competitors doesn't mean you have a good product. ATi survives like their owner AMD does- they're cheap.

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
If AMD is so much LOWER than Nvidia at the moment, why does AMD have the 2 top cards in the DX11 category? In fact, AMD has a lot more DX11 cards than Nvidia. From what I can tell, that means AMD controls the market at the moment. Funny how times change. Nvidia won DX10, but AMD is winning DX11. Sales numbers don't lie, and Nvidia is still recovering from their GF100 fiasco.
You see a lot more Kia's and Hyundai's on the road than BMW's and Lexus's- doesn;t mean they're better cars. (besides the fact ATi had a 7-8 month head start selling "DX11" cards that can barely run DX11.

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Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
Keep touting a $600 card... It's ok. That's a lot of money for a single-GPU video card. You can buy a couple of HD 6950's for that price and absolutely CRUSH a 3GB GTX 580. Who in their right mind would EVER buy a 3GB GTX 580? What a waste of money.
The guy I was talking to needs a 3GB card due to his native resolution, you keep ignoring this in your attempt to sell the KMart Blue Light special 6970. The waste of money would be if he listened to you and watched his video thrash as it ran out of VRAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madpistol View Post
Here's one thing that trumps what you say: Value dictates the market.
Here's something else: Your "evidence" is using a 2GB GTX 460. The 2GB HD 6950 and 6970 are both faster and use their resources better.
Not everyone has to pinch pennies, some people don't care about saving a couple hundred per card. I recommended the best solution, you've posted no evidence that 2GB is enough for 75X16. Your guess is irrelevant. Unless you can post benches that show 2GB is plenty for 75X16, your guesses mean nothing.


LOL you do love to go on and on and on. Sorry have to go be the team lead at a software company this morning, then I'm taking the afternoon off to enjoy my hobbies. Carry on yelling about "value!" to people who are talking about "best of best".
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Old 02-03-11, 07:28 AM   #23
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Rollo,

I have just a 22'inch screen, i think it maxes out at 1680x1050

So your saying it would be dumb for me to get a gtx590, and just go with the gtx580?

That th gtx590, 6790's, etc are all for hi-res or multi screen support?
See what you started here? Just joking....I gamed at 1680x1050 up until a little over a month ago. Some games utilize the gpu much more heavily than others, then there's AA support etc which varies between games and which gpu you buy.

My humble recommendation is grab either the GTX 570 (preferred simply because I like Nvidia's drivers better) or the 6970 and call it a day. Either card will give you good support and a great gaming experience, even if you should move up to 1920x1080 with AA.

While a 580 would be more future proof, the future is never far off in the gaming/hardware world. I grabbed a 480 not long after release and it will last me just fine for at least a year at my gaming rez of 1920x1080 with a second 22" screen hooked up as well.

Buy one, enjoy it or sell and get the other if you aren't happy.

Just my humble $.02
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Old 02-03-11, 07:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: gtx590 release?

if I were to buy amd, I would buy 1st gen dx11 amd (5870 2gb or 5970 4gb)or possibly a gtx 590. I don't like how there is less stream processors in gen 2 of amd along with less memory bandwidth. The higher clocks aren't making up for it. I thought that a new generations of cards are supposed to supercede the last. Why amd is taking a step back would make me a little worried that they can't outdo themselves. All nvidia does is make things faster and more efficent in their next gen, that's all. Yes, the gtx 580 is premium priced, but premium cards deserve their value for what they can do.
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