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Old 02-07-12, 10:22 PM   #1
Scias
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Question Wayland approaching 1.0, what about NVIDIA support?

So, according to http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1MTQ, Wayland is close to a 1.0 release which means it's going to be stable and not perform big API/ABI changes...

I know the position of NVIDIA was that there was no plans to support Wayland, but now that it's starting to see the light, I hope you will reconsider your statement.
I also know that one of the reasons of your non-support to Wayland is that it supposedly requires KMS and GEM, which your driver already implement in your own way, but in fact, Wayland just requires a mode setting and a way to share buffers between processes, and it doesn't matter in which way it's done. So I don't think there's many barriers preventing you to support Wayland. Also, it requires less work to support it than X11, since you don't need a DDX driver.

I recently moved from AMD(ATI) to NVIDIA because I was tired of AMD always being late supporting newer Xorg versions. So far I have nothing to complain about concerning NVIDIA Linux support (even if I'd like to see latest RandR being supported...). However if you maintain your statement about Wayland, it won't be pleasant for the Linux users that have chosen you over AMD for your quick support of the latest Linux stuff.
Since Wayland may be introduced in many distros (starting from Ubuntu) in the near future, it would be wise from NVIDIA to start supporting it. I'm aware Wayland won't replace X11 just like this and will need more years to really take importance but yet, better sooner than later, and I think many people would be peaceful just hearing NVIDIA's staff say that they have plans for it.

Wayland has got a huge potential and may completely change the Linux desktop in the near future. It would be too bad if a company like NVIDIA that so far, provided excellent Linux support, was slowing down everything and for no real reason...
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Old 02-08-12, 02:18 PM   #2
JaXXoN
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Default Re: Wayland approaching 1.0, what about NVIDIA support?

You can run wayland on top of an OpenGL capable X server (there are demos on youtube), so concerning desktop Linux I currently don't so the urgent need to provide a KMS/GEM/DRI/FB or whatever based OpenGL nvidia driver to run Wayland without an X server, but YMMV.

regards

Bernhard
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Old 02-10-12, 02:45 PM   #3
ledoc
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Default Re: Wayland approaching 1.0, what about NVIDIA support?

By the time wayland becomes the mainstream/standard display server we probably don't have to worry about the blob any more. Most "normal" users will (hopefully) have migrated to nouveau.
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Old 02-10-12, 03:45 PM   #4
Scias
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Default Re: Wayland approaching 1.0, what about NVIDIA support?

@ledoc:
The problem is that nouveau is sadly still far behind concerning performance and features compared to the blob, and I don't think it will ever be able to support the newer Nvidia products as fast as the blob. Maybe for desktop users, nouveau is enough but when it comes to 3D, SLI, power management and games, it's close to unuseable.

@JaXXon:
Then what's the point of Wayland if we still have to use X to use it? The interest of Wayland is to (in long term) get rid of this old and overcomplicated X11 cruft. If you have to use it over X11, you just loose most of its benefits and add yet another layer and the overhead that comes with it.
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Old 02-10-12, 05:56 PM   #5
Gusar
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Default Re: Wayland approaching 1.0, what about NVIDIA support?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledoc View Post
By the time wayland becomes the mainstream/standard display server we probably don't have to worry about the blob any more. Most "normal" users will (hopefully) have migrated to nouveau.
I'll put a different spin on that and say: By the time wayland becomes the mainstream/standard display server, there will be a nvidia blob to go with it. But that time is still far from now.
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Old 02-10-12, 07:35 PM   #6
JaXXoN
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Default Re: Wayland approaching 1.0, what about NVIDIA support?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scias View Post
Then what's the point of Wayland if we still have to use X to use it? The interest of Wayland is to (in long term) get rid of this old and overcomplicated X11 cruft. If you have to use it over X11, you just loose most of its benefits and add yet another layer and the overhead that comes with it.
I strongly disagree!

For example, it should be possible to run Wayland on top of a Multi-GPU Xinerama X-server (similar to Xgl) without the need to worry about the underlaying drivers. Heck, I even would use Wayland with legacy X-Applications, only, just for that purpose as a replacement for the discontinued Xgl :-) You could even run Wayland on top of XDMX with a huge multi-display spanning several computers, pretty much today (at least in theory). I guess it would take many years to get there if you are just asking for a low-level OpenGL driver.

Consider an accelerated X11 Server just to be the base OpenGL driver required for Wayland. Thanks to direct rendering, you wouldn't improve the performance by removing X11. And building X11 with the minimum configuration required for OpenGL will introduce a negligible memory overhead, only. Also, having X11 in between the hardware and Wayland allows you to easily redirect the display to the other end of the world over the network (GLX) if that should be necessary (something that Wayland doesn't intend to address).

I see a lot of potential in a stacked X-Client<->Wayland<->X-Server solution.

regards

Bernhard

Last edited by JaXXoN; 02-10-12 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 02-11-12, 10:47 AM   #7
rang501
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Default Re: Wayland approaching 1.0, what about NVIDIA support?

Wayland support would be nice.
I really hope, that Nvidia think something out to support linux better. Performance is best available. If they somehow fix plymouth support somehow, I would be really happy.
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