How real people will use Windows 8 on the desktop

[Zelda_fan]

I will be investing a lot of money into apple stock sometime in the next few months.

[Rakeesh]

Originally Posted by Redeemed

Metro, as it is, will never be successful in the desktop space. So long as the keyboard and mouse are the primary input devices it will not catch on. It'd be more cost effective to switch over to Apple and run XP or 7 in parallels or bootcamp.

No, it wouldn't. In the typical enterprise environment, you're going to have deals with vendors like dell or hp where you order say 50 desktop systems (which in the future will probably include windows 8 OEM) and you'll spend around say $375 per system for an i3 processor, 4GB of ram, 250GB HDD and includes a 20" monitor.

You'll then have a volume license for Windows 7 Enterprise which costs you $60-80 per desktop (depending on any existing deals you have) and the first thing you'll do with the new computers is blow out the included OS and do an online unattended install of your volume licensed copy with an image that already includes all of your necessary applications and updates pre-installed.

And then on top of that, when you need upgrades, you can work with any vendor of your choosing.

With apple you are just stuck with whatever apple gives you, you'll pay two to three times as much per machine, and installing your applications is a manual process driving the costs even higher. There's a reason most businesses don't use apple. In fact you're far more likely to find linux than apple in *any* business.

In fact, my school used to include apple, but they stopped because they're expensive and nobody has any need for them. However in our business department linux is very popular because of apache as well as many advanced networking features not found in any other OS, except Cisco's IOS (not to be confused with apple's iOS) and Junipers JunOS, both of which only run on specialized hardware.

[Zelda_fan]

Originally Posted by Rakeesh

There's a reason most businesses don't use apple. In fact you're far more likely to find linux than apple in *any* business.

That is rapidly changing. I have a friend who works at Vanity Fair and was given both a company iphone and ipad within the last year. I see countless other business executives with the same thing. The iPhone is replacing the blackberry, and the iPad is replacing the notebook.

There is a reason Apple is sitting on nearly 90B worth of cash and has the highest market capitalization of any company in the world. 15 years ago the sucked. Now they are penetrating nearly every aspect of the market.

[six_storm]

Originally Posted by Rakeesh

No, it wouldn't. In the typical enterprise environment, you're going to have deals with vendors like dell or hp where you order say 50 desktop systems (which in the future will probably include windows 8 OEM) and you'll spend around say $375 per system for an i3 processor, 4GB of ram, 250GB HDD and includes a 20" monitor.

You'll then have a volume license for Windows 7 Enterprise which costs you $60-80 per desktop (depending on any existing deals you have) and the first thing you'll do with the new computers is blow out the included OS and do an online unattended install of your volume licensed copy with an image that already includes all of your necessary applications and updates pre-installed.

And then on top of that, when you need upgrades, you can work with any vendor of your choosing.

With apple you are just stuck with whatever apple gives you, you'll pay two to three times as much per machine, and installing your applications is a manual process driving the costs even higher. There's a reason most businesses don't use apple. In fact you're far more likely to find linux than apple in *any* business.

In fact, my school used to include apple, but they stopped because they're expensive and nobody has any need for them. However in our business department linux is very popular because of apache as well as many advanced networking features not found in any other OS, except Cisco's IOS (not to be confused with apple's iOS) and Junipers JunOS, both of which only run on specialized hardware.

As much as I love my Apple products, I will agree that they are not business ready.

Three months ago, we had maybe 1 call or issue about a Mac setup. Today? It's phenomenal how many people are buying Macs and asking us how to do this and that. Heck I had to teach a simple class on them to my co-workers so they know what each mail client supports, what's the best method, etc.

Going back to my original statement, Office applications for the Mac simply suck. Microsoft Office is the best office suite and I doubt anybody will every come close to beating them. However, when they made Office 2008 and 2011, they really screwed Mac users by giving them HORRIBLE software. Outlook is the worst out of any of them. Instead of making PST files like the Windows version, it creates a database to hold your email locally. And the more and more emails you put in that DB, the slower your Outlook runs. It's absolute GARBAGE.

You know what I told my company that we should only support? If any client wants Office on their Mac, they need to purchase Parallels/Fusion, install Windows 7 and then Office 2010. No lie. It's really sad that Microsoft can make such a horrible product. Heck, Office 2010 inside of a WinXP/Win7 VM runs lighter and faster than the native Office 2011 apps! WTF?

Apple Mail is alright but there are certain situations where it won't work. Have Exchange 03? You have to use POP/IMAP. You have to have Exchange 2007 and up to setup a true Exchange account. That only takes care of mail. What about Calendar and Contacts? Some people don't like having three separate programs open (Mail, iCal and Address Book).

All of this is to say that having an Apple environment is just not feasible right now. However, people are buying them left and right all of a sudden around Nashville and the TN area. I know that iPhones are the most popular phones in our area and cause the least issues compared to other smartphones, but that's a different story.

Businesses will still continue to buy the $200 eMachine ghetto PCs all day long and my company will continue to support them, Windows 8 and all.

[FastRedPonyCar]

Originally Posted by TheOneAndOnly

The point is, when someone buys a computer set up with Windows 8, after using the same UI/UX for 17+ odd years, and finding everything changed around (and not for the better), there is going to be some bad mojo coming from the non-geek users.

Yep. I'm already expecting a lot of phone calls for me to install windows 7 on their new machines after they see how terrible W8 is.

Originally Posted by TheOneAndOnly

Also, notice that all apps you install get placed on the Start Screen (legacy apps are ugly as hell). On a normal install, I have roughly 200 games alone. Many of those install multiple icons. That alone is going to be a major hassle. No more hierarchical or nested folders in Metro. That is going to be one major cluster f*ck to deal with.

And this right here is my main issue with metro. It gets HILARIOUSLY cluttered once you start actually installing stuff.

[FastRedPonyCar]

Originally Posted by Zelda_fan

That is rapidly changing. I have a friend who works at Vanity Fair and was given both a company iphone and ipad within the last year. I see countless other business executives with the same thing. The iPhone is replacing the blackberry, and the iPad is replacing the notebook.

my wife's company is the same way. They all got iphone 4's for christmas and are working with developers to find alternative software solutions that will run on OSX and offer seamless integration with their iphones and ipads they take with them out of the office.

[Rakeesh]

Originally Posted by six_storm

Businesses will still continue to buy the $200 eMachine ghetto PCs all day long and my company will continue to support them, Windows 8 and all.

Those "ghetto" $200 PC's aren't any worse than anything from apple. In fact in many/most cases they are better than a $600 mac. The idea that apple hardware is superior is a myth. Hands down, no sugar coating it. All you are paying for is the fact that it has the word "Apple" written on it.

This guy isn't an idiot. He is the author of the most accurate and fully functional SNES emulator to ever exist (in fact it literally plays every single game that exists to perfection.) He ports his emulator to Linux and Mac, and here's his experience with mac:

http://byuu.org/articles/apple

(or at least he used to port it to mac)

Read the whole thing. It's really funny just how cheap apple hardware is. It's also a really neat blog if you want to find out how hardware reverse engineering is done.

Also the idea that macs crash less and are more secure is an even bigger myth, in fact of the three major OSes, it is the worst in both departments by far, and worse is apple is by far the slowest at responding to zero day vulnerabilities (apple regularly will wait up to two months before patching exploits - that is an eternity for mission critical systems, which is yet another reason they'll never run on OSX.)

Anyways businesses don't buy $200 ghetto PC's just because they're cheap.

[Yaboze]

That page was funny, but he bought a Mac mini, which even Apple fans call a piece of crap.

The HD and RAM failed, both not made by Apple. It's a closed system, if you expect to open and do all kinds of hax, you're going to be disappointed.

The iMac's and Macbooks are made very well, as are the iPhones and iPads.

[nekrosoft13]

Originally Posted by Rakeesh

Also the idea that macs crash less and are more secure is an even bigger myth, in fact of the three major OSes, it is the worst in both departments by far, and worse is apple is by far the slowest at responding to zero day vulnerabilities (apple regularly will wait up to two months before patching exploits - that is an eternity for mission critical systems, which is yet another reason they'll never run on OSX.)

Anyways businesses don't buy $200 ghetto PC's just because they're cheap.

very true, OSX is the least secure system, in every hacking competition, macs get hacked first. they give the illusion of being secure because of tiny market share, meaning little news stories out there and because of tiny market share, hackers etc.. concentrate on the bigger piece of pie (windows).

[Rakeesh]

Originally Posted by Yaboze

The HD and RAM failed, both not made by Apple.

Apple doesn't actually make 99% of the components you find in them (in fact I'd be surprised if apple owns any fabrication plants at all, so that figure is probably closer to 100%.) Foxconn makes most of the case materials, and the components such as hard drives, processors, memory, etc are all made by companies such as samsung, hitachi, and intel just to name a few.

Apple does not make memory, and apple does not make hard drives. It may in some cases have the name apple written on the component itself, but apple does not make it. Hell, apple doesn't even assemble their own computers.

In fact all of the above can be said about HP and Dell as well (with the exception of custom built Dell PC's, which ARE assembled in the US at various locations that dell owns.) HP and Dell are both huge customers of Foxconn for example.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_apple_factory

Apple is really just another OEM, only they use their own in-house less secure, less compatible, and less stable OS.

(EDIT: source here and ironically ASUS and Lenovo, of all companies, are reported to produce superior hardware to apple, source here, so next time an apple fanboy talks up their "great quality" hardware, remind them that the chinese company Lenovo does a better job, and their computers are a LOT cheaper)

Really all you're paying for is the name apple written on it.

Why am I telling you all of this? Consumers are stupid and will buy the shiny apple products because it's cool and hip to do so. But the idea that businesses would EVER switch to anything apple due to windows 8 having a crappy UI is just a big crock of....you know. Trust me, if it came down to it, linux would by far come next in line.

Originally Posted by Yaboze

The iMac's and Macbooks are made very well, as are the iPhones and iPads.

Nope, all of the above have huge QA issues compared to the competition.

http://www.infoworld.com/t/hardware/...c-049?page=0,0

[Redeemed]

Interesting info Rakeesh, thank you.

As to Windows 8, I've been giving this some more thought.

I've worked retail in various positions for the past, well, almost 7 years. And to be honest, as much as we may not like it being power users I think Windows 8 just may do very well. Follow me here-

The average computer user, though far more capable now then prior years, still prefers something that is simple. And what can be more simple than touch based devices? They also prefer something that is sleek in appearances. What is more sleek, tidy, and uncluttered than a touch-based device?

Honestly I think Windows 8 is an indication of where the market is going. No, desktops are not going anywhere. They are, however, changing. Significantly.

Take a look, for example, at the sigs of the members of this forum (and likely any hardware forum). Many are still rocking LGA775 based computers, even more are rocking LGA 1155/1156/LGA1366 or Quad and Six-Core AMD based systems (AM3/AM3+), but fewer are rocking absolutely bleeding-edge components. As much as I'd love to do a major over haul to my system, I'd likely see very little real-world benefit. My CPU, though now 3 years old, is still excessive for my usage. 16GB of RAM is beyond over kill. My 5870 can play absolutely every game out there, most of them with all in-game options maxed (@ 1920x1200, worst case scenerio is no AA though with most titles I can have some level of AA). All of these parts are now comparable to more mainstream components. A single 7870 outpaces my 5870, higher end Core i5's can compete with my stock 920 and if over clocked, surpass my 920. Really the only upgrade that would yield noticeable improvements would be to my storage sub-systems: newer and larger SSD(s), larger and faster HDDs for all my storage needs. Anything else would yield improvements but nothing that'd I'd be wowed by.

My point? My system is far from high-end anymore. If anything it is slipping more towards main-stream. Yet it is still quite powerful and capable. As I type this up I have about 12 tabs open in FF, WMP is minimized playing a playlist, I've got Steam running in the background as well as Norton 360- and I can switch between applications or tabs in a heart beat. There is zero delay in anything I want to do. My only complaint with my computer? The very few times I work with HD video I'd like it to create my videos quicker. I do that so seldom though that I'm not worried about it.

Moving onto my point- individual components are becoming so powerful and cheap, I believe the desktop market will become saturated with all-in-one PCs. The touchscreen models from Dell, HP, ASUS and the likes will sell very well once Windows 8 comes out.

Think about it- when you need the advantages of a keyboard and mouse you can use them with an all in one PC. For simple desktop navigation Metro on a touch-screen all in one PC will be a hit. And most touch screen all in ones pack some pretty potent hardware- quad core processors, dedicated graphics cards, HD displays, 8GB of RAM or greater, larger HDD (1TB or greater) and I could even see manufacturers offering SSDs with them. For the average joe such a computer is more than fast enough to meet their needs, it takes up less space, looks neater.

Honestly, I think the desktop market will move towards the All-in-ones. Having a tower with separate monitor will become less common. More of a niche market. Most PC gamers aren't too worried with visual quality anymore. The low-end and mainstream GPUs in all-in-one PCs will play every game out at decreased visuals compared to higher-end systems.

For us power users? Who knows- maybe Windows 8 Business/Pro and Ultimate will offer the tradition start button and start menu. Or maybe we'll be forced to use hacks. Either way, I think we all just need to swallow the truth that desktop-computing is going to be taken over by touch-based applications and devices. A lot of graphics artists use Wacom tablets or the likes for their drawings, and in programs like Adobe Photoshop or Premier or whatever similar program use of the mouse and keyboard is unhindered by metro.

My personal opinion of 8 remains the same- Windows 7 will more than likely remain my main OS unless I can easily disable metro (either through built-in methods in Windows 8 or via very simple hacks) and use a tradition start button and menu. I will, however, have a separate Windows 8 install on its own SSD (likely my current 30GB once I get a new and larger SSD).

[Rakeesh]

Originally Posted by slaWter

lol at the Apple hate in here...

Show me one thing that isn't factual about what I sad.