Go Back   nV News Forums > Software Forums > Gaming Central

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-03-05, 09:15 AM   #97
Intel17
Is not an Intel fanboi
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Burlington, VT
Posts: 1,368
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nv40
Doom3 engine have *MANY* things gamedevelopers call wrong..even John carmack calls them ->FLAWS and Limitations. already posted in thins thread his comments .. things that in his own words he *obviously* needs to fix in their game. the engine have potential,, its a good step in the right direction.. but still is an engine based around the capabilities of geforce1/3 hardware. its not a bad engine..but neither is a re-volutionary one.. its just an evolutionary engine with many good things and with many wrong things ,limitations in some other areas. that if JC dont fix them ,it will be outdated in less than a year. limitations already explained since the first post.

most likely JC have a new engine in beta stage right now..that takes advantage of all the NV40 next generation features.. for their next game.. but the things you seems to not understand is that *IS NOT* the same D3 engine finished 4 year ago .the engine used by the D3 mod community today was finished in ~97% many years ago.. when the best hardware was a geforce3. the argument that "if not a problem" because you can code whatever you want.. is valid for thousands of others games outhere that developers allows their games to be modded ,is valid for anyone doing his own engine.. they can also code whatever thing they want. and do the games they want..Thats why other games engines exist. and today carmack game engine its not "Doom3 engine" its not the same thing but another thing. but that he could choose to call the same way . even though it migh have a completely new renderer..Physics engine, AI and network code.
Not revolutionary eh? I guess a move into completely proper lighting and shadowing with per-pixel shading per surface isn't too revolutionary. Or the ability to make limitless level sizes isn't revolutionary either. And I guess using bump, specularity and diffuse on every surface isn't a revolution.

Compared to offline stuff, sure it's not revolutionary, but in the game world it is, and quite frankly, I don't give a damn about offline renderers in this context.

And about that "gloss" limitation, tell me why it's a "hack" and not a proper solution! Gloss maps only need range of about a 100 different values, but with using the diffuse alpha channel, you get 255. I don't see how it's needed to make separate gloss maps.

Other limitations you mention are in tools. Sure soft-shadows will be nice and sub-surface light scattering will be excellent, along with the ability to write programs at the surface level will allow for photorealistic surfaces, but that stuff is TRIVIAL once you have the proper hardware.

The only engine available for licence which can rival Doom is Unreal Engine 3. Even THAT has some major caveats which Doom doesn't have.

Believe what you want Nv40, you can think the CryEngine, Source or UE3 are better than Doom, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me anymore.
Intel17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-05, 09:17 AM   #98
Intel17
Is not an Intel fanboi
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Burlington, VT
Posts: 1,368
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knot3D
....basically..., what Splinter Cell 3 has now, right ?
Heh on VERY few objects. Source uses shadowmaps on it's characters, CryEngine uses them outdoors on (select) dynamic objects.

However all of these implimentations are buggy and in VERY limited cases.
Intel17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-05, 02:42 PM   #99
Knot3D
Registered User
 
Knot3D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: ShadowMosesIsland
Posts: 734
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
Heh on VERY few objects. Source uses shadowmaps on it's characters, CryEngine uses them outdoors on (select) dynamic objects.

However all of these implimentations are buggy and in VERY limited cases.
uhm...but... SC Chaos Theory uses Ubisoft's propietary SC X engine which is basically a very very mucho modified SC1 engine, not Source. Here's the official SC3 demo specs :

GRAPHICS

* DX8 SHADER MODEL 1.1 VERSION
o Shaders architecture with diffuse and specular lighting parameters + environment reflection
o All lighting components are considering the normal map
o Specular lighting can be tuned depending on material properties (glossiness and strength)
o Procedural animated texturing is available on all shader components (diffuse, normal map, specular mask, environment map)
o Available for transparent materials
o Real time reflection materials on flat surfaces
o Complex character lighting with average compensation and translucency
o Filtered soft shadow maps with bleeding removal
o High resolution and no compression on character normal maps
* DX9 SHADER MODEL 3.0 VERSION (include all SHADER MODEL 1.1 features)
o Parallax mapping with height map support (virtual displacement mapping)
o Enhanced filtered soft shadows
o High dynamic range rendering
o Tone mapping
o Advance skin shader for character with subsurface scattering and improved light bleeding
o High internal precision rendering (remove banding artifacts)


On my 6800GT I see all cast shadows from both characters as static geometry as realtime soft shadows using Nvidia's shadow buffer capability. I wonder if Carmack has played the SC3 demo already...(the official demo runs pretty smooth now)
__________________
AMD X2 4800, Asus A8N32sli-D, Corsair Twinx 2Gb PC3500LLpro, Asus X1900XTX & 2 WD Raptors
Knot3D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-05, 03:22 PM   #100
Nv40
Agent-Fx
 
Nv40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: everywhere
Posts: 2,216
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
Not revolutionary eh? I guess a move into completely proper lighting and shadowing with per-pixel shading per surface isn't too revolutionary. Or the ability to make limitless level sizes isn't revolutionary either. And I guess using bump, specularity and diffuse on every surface isn't a revolution.

Compared to offline stuff, sure it's not revolutionary, but in the game world it is, and quite frankly, I don't give a damn about offline renderers in this context.

And about that "gloss" limitation, tell me why it's a "hack" and not a proper solution! Gloss maps only need range of about a 100 different values, but with using the diffuse alpha channel, you get 255. I don't see how it's needed to make separate gloss maps.

Other limitations you mention are in tools. Sure soft-shadows will be nice and sub-surface light scattering will be excellent, along with the ability to write programs at the surface level will allow for photorealistic surfaces, but that stuff is TRIVIAL once you have the proper hardware.

The only engine available for licence which can rival Doom is Unreal Engine 3. Even THAT has some major caveats which Doom doesn't have.

Believe what you want Nv40, you can think the CryEngine, Source or UE3 are better than Doom, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me anymore.

its not revolutionary because already many many other games/engine have more or less similar lighting/shadows techniques. look here an qick example of per pixel lighting engines ...

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/list.php?fid=21&sid=1


many were done even years before Doom3 was even finished.. DEuxEx2,Cronicles of Riddick ,Farcry ,Fear ,SC3 ,Halo2,Everquest2 ,sabotage..are just few examples of games with realtime shadows/or lighting .. some even support realtime Softshadows. and use FPblending/filtering/ and require a Sm3.0 hardware ,for some of its graphics. it doesnt exist yet "the best" engine. all game engines have limitations here or there... next generations game engines like Unreal3/COD2/ next IDsoftware engine /next Valve engine.. or the ones in progress for Xbox2/PSx3 games..migh change that.. and end being really good for any thing you want and you throw at it. for any kind of indoors or outdoors game.

Last edited by Nv40; 03-03-05 at 03:41 PM.
Nv40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-05, 05:24 PM   #101
Intel17
Is not an Intel fanboi
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Burlington, VT
Posts: 1,368
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nv40
its not revolutionary because already many many other games/engine have more or less similar lighting/shadows techniques. look here an qick example of per pixel lighting engines ...

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/list.php?fid=21&sid=1


many were done even years before Doom3 was even finished.. DEuxEx2,Cronicles of Riddick ,Farcry ,Fear ,SC3 ,Halo2,Everquest2 ,sabotage..are just few examples of games with realtime shadows/or lighting .. some even support realtime Softshadows. and use FPblending/filtering/ and require a Sm3.0 hardware ,for some of its graphics. it doesnt exist yet "the best" engine. all game engines have limitations here or there... next generations game engines like Unreal3/COD2/ next IDsoftware engine /next Valve engine.. or the ones in progress for Xbox2/PSx3 games..migh change that.. and end being really good for any thing you want and you throw at it. for any kind of indoors or outdoors game.
DeusEx2- Hardly Doom 3 level. Shadows are not all real-time, and not all lights are real-time.

Riddick- Yes it's comparable to Doom but it's unable to cope with significant amounts of geometry (from my own personal testing with the editor)

Fear- Again, it's all simple, boxy rooms with real-time shadowing.

SC3- I've played the demo, and certainly NOT all objects cast shadows. Everything which casts shadows only get one shadow, and it's only based on the strongest lightsource. Also, Doom 3's engine has HDR in beta form. Licencees can turn on HDR in their games.

Halo2- You're joking right?

Everquest2- Heh, hardly.

FarCry- Read my indepth shadow investigation!


Yes all of these engines have LIMITED per-pixel lighting and shadowing support, but Doom is doing it correctly, unlike any of these.
Intel17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-05, 11:08 PM   #102
HIWTHI
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Saying Doom 3 is the best engine out there is quite a naive thing to say. Sure the lighting and shadowing is the best indoors, but to say it's the best engine out there isn't correct. Maybe someone thinks the best engine is the one that has the best facial animation (Source), or the best LOD methods (Crytek). Getting terrain to work in the Doom 3 isn't easy, and even when you get it working getting the type of results that Crytek shows isn't realistic without a ton of extra programming. The Doom 3 Engine is good, but surely isn't the king of the world in all game engine areas.
HIWTHI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-05, 04:54 AM   #103
jolle
Registered User
 
jolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,804
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

about this "realtime shadows".
that HAS been around for ages, you can enable realtime shadows in Quake2 for example..
Any game that has any form of shadows on moving things are using realtime shadows, shadow maps or whatever..

The "new" thing about the D3 engine is that it does realtime volumetric stencil shadows on everything, "unified" as its being called means that it will light and shadow everything under the same conditions.
Unlike other engines that will bake in precomputed shadows into the texture of the maps, then use a realtime solution such as shadowmaps on dynamic things..
the trick here is to make it look good when they meet, the static and dynamic shadows..
Its oldschool but it still works and can look good, specially as you can get softer shadows with shadow maps cheaper..

But that is beside the point, D3 does everything in a more "real" way, Imo its more imersive and feels more "real".
Starbreeze engine seems to work in the same way with Riddick.
Anyhow, this is the "big news" with the engine, not simply "dynamic shadows" or "realtime shadows" cause that would include any shadow that can move, which has been around for ages..
Fire up Quake2 and try r_shadows 1.
__________________
Q6700, Abit X38 QuadGT, 8Gb (4x 2GB) OCZ Reaper DDR2 1066MHz, Gainward GTX 285 1Gb, X-Fi XtremeMusic
jolle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Regression with 295.33 and GeForce GT 240 maro NVIDIA Linux 16 06-29-12 06:47 PM
Valve's Source engine to power upcoming animated film News Archived News Items 0 06-10-12 09:20 PM
Gorgeous Unreal Engine 4 brings direct programming, indirect lighting News Archived News Items 0 06-08-12 09:20 PM
May 24 Webinar: How Do You Make Grid Engine Faster? News Archived News Items 0 05-22-12 06:30 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.