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Old 03-24-03, 11:38 AM   #1
digitalwanderer
 
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Thumbs up New policy at Futuremark: WHQL drivers only, NO MORE CHEATING!

I just saw this posted over at R3D so I can't vouch for it's vericity yet, but if it's true I think it's a great and ballsy move by Futuremark with a great big "F*CK YOU!" going out to nVidia with it.

Discuss?

EDITED BITS: Verified by the onion folks, this is real!
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Old 03-24-03, 12:35 PM   #2
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While I think it is important to point out all things like this when it is possible that a company is cheating on IQ to get better performance, let us not forget when the 8500 did the same thing.

Definitely a large move by Futuremark that should have been done long ago. I think it had to have been done now due to nVidia's critical opinions of the benchmark, which whether we want to admit it or not - carry a lot of weight in the industry.

Can't really say I think nVidia will care about it though. They were for the media and they are most likely working so hard on trying to "fix" FX performance that they won't even notice.
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Old 03-24-03, 12:48 PM   #3
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Default First off; I love you Quinn, but...

Quote:
Originally posted by Quinn1981
Can't really say I think nVidia will care about it though. They were for the media and they are most likely working so hard on trying to "fix" FX performance that they won't even notice.
.....no.

This is going to bring into the spotlight the whole Achille's heel of the FX & DX9, the 24FP requirement. All the driver sets in question use the 16FP, and M$ requires 24FP for DX9 certification.

This is exactly WHY the FX has such crappy performance! (Although I really don't mean it's a crappy card, just under the current DX9 standard....I really wouldn't mind one myself to game with. ) The hacked drivers that 'nVidia put out to show how much optimizing drivers can affect benchmarks' only showed off the problems with their hardware's design and the new DX standard.

(BTW-Is it just me, or does it start to get confusing when you're having 3 different arguments with the same people across a couple of three boards? )
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[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
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Old 03-24-03, 12:57 PM   #4
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This will be all very well and good provided we see no non-WHQL results from any other video card manufacturer. That means, no more results with Omega's or any other beta drivers from ATI or NVIDIA.
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Old 03-24-03, 01:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: First off; I love you Quinn, but...

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
.....no.

This is going to bring into the spotlight the whole Achille's heel of the FX & DX9, the 24FP requirement. All the driver sets in question use the 16FP, and M$ requires 24FP for DX9 certification.

This is exactly WHY the FX has such crappy performance! (Although I really don't mean it's a crappy card, just under the current DX9 standard....I really wouldn't mind one myself to game with. ) The hacked drivers that 'nVidia put out to show how much optimizing drivers can affect benchmarks' only showed off the problems with their hardware's design and the new DX standard.

(BTW-Is it just me, or does it start to get confusing when you're having 3 different arguments with the same people across a couple of three boards? )
But you're stating the obvious DW. I'm just saying they will have that on the back burner while they try to appease the WHQL gods. Plus, you'll notice my rolly eyes hinting at a bit of sarcasm.

As for multiple board debating... yes.

I agree with Saturnotaku. With this, we should see total WHQL results only and no hacked drivers of any kind. This should have been done a while ago if Futuremark wanted "clean" results.

I only want to see total clean benchmarks now because 3D Mark 2003 is more like a gaming system benchmark than a video subsystem benchmark. Otherwise, this will make the whole 3D Mark fun just null and void concerning video tweaking.

I have mixed emotions about it though.
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Old 03-24-03, 02:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: Re: First off; I love you Quinn, but...

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I have mixed emotions about it though.
Ah, there ain't nothing more pleasant than the certainity that blind video zealousy can bring you. It's a real comfort and a blessing.































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[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
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Old 03-24-03, 02:34 PM   #7
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Oh, you kidder.
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Old 03-24-03, 10:09 PM   #8
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Hmmmmmmm. Well if they do away with "ALL" non-WHQL driver results, I'm curious to how their die hard fan club will react to it. I'm wondering if this is more of a "Financial" move then anything. Considering that their 03 version differes completely from their predecessor in terms of options on the demo to the paying version.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

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Old 03-25-03, 08:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solomon
I'm wondering if this is more of a "Financial" move then anything. Considering that their 03 version differes completely from their predecessor in terms of options on the demo to the paying version.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I think it's simply their way of protecting themselves from the damage nVidia have tried to do to them by releasing these 'cheating' drivers for3DMark 2003.

I just hope that they apply this kind of thing even-handedly, and stop any non-WHQL results from being used, regardless of the IHV. You can't use one rule for one company, and one for everyone else.

Some people have mentioned the idea of FutureMark keeping a database for WHQL drivers, and one for non-WHQL drivers - I think they would be a good idea, and even more revealing...
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Old 03-25-03, 11:31 AM   #10
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If they call they shot, they have to make it; or else they will loose all credibility.
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Old 03-25-03, 04:43 PM   #11
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The are clearly just targeting this series of Nvidia drivers.
I will bet you the video card of your choice that you can access plenty of results on ATI cards using non-WHQL drivers, for that matter you can access plenty of Nvidia results using non-WHQL drivers; just not the specific driver sets that Nvidia put out to show that yes, you can tweak for a specific benchmark, but we would rather not have to.

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Old 03-25-03, 07:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quinn1981
While I think it is important to point out all things like this when it is possible that a company is cheating on IQ to get better performance, let us not forget when the 8500 did the same thing.

Definitely a large move by Futuremark that should have been done long ago. I think it had to have been done now due to nVidia's critical opinions of the benchmark, which whether we want to admit it or not - carry a lot of weight in the industry.

Can't really say I think nVidia will care about it though. They were for the media and they are most likely working so hard on trying to "fix" FX performance that they won't even notice.
do you realise what happened in the quake/quak issue?

do you realise what was done.. for what period of time... who leaked the info to hardware review sites et al ?

do you also realise that nvidia has for a while released 'optimised' drivers that give boosts in 3dmark2001SE and not much else.. in fact reducing playability or stability in other games?

it is not an isolated incident and ati does not have a history of HACKING... there is one instance that always gets touted and yet there are few who seem to know what happened...

whether they 'cheated' is subjective... I am sure many feel they did.. I for one do not... looking @ the evidence given... and the sources...

nvidia's words carry weight only with the ignorant... if you are going to look @ OEM manufacturers.. and companies like alienware and others that give a copy of your benchmark figures expected with your sytem... you are perhaps going to have a different opinion...

OEM peeps seem to know a little more than the average joe and they are likely to go with the products they can get their hands on and sell which have the much touted new technologies that consumers want... this was expected of the 5800ultra.. but oem manufacturers can hardly build top end systems using them if they are not retailling...

there are a lot of cards on the market that are in the gf4mx and lower range from nvidia... look @ the number of users who have r300 based cards right now... now consider those users choices when they look to upgrade... ati is filing every price point with powerful components.. nvidia has a void in their lineup when it comes to nextgen parts @ the moment... the nv31/34 will plug this.. but the HIGH end remains open to ati... untill the nv35 comes and is available in quantity...

it is not a situation nvidia will be willing to just sit back and say.. we have better cards... month on month the last few months ati is outselling nvidia... not by much.. but they are...
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