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View Poll Results: Will you get a 9700 Or will you wait to compare it with the nv30 and get the better?
Get 9700 41 35.65%
Compare w/nv30 and get better one 74 64.35%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-24-02, 09:53 AM   #49
Lamentation
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Maybe not on topic (if it matters at this point), but I won't pay more than $200 for any piece of a comp. I got a gainward ti200 for 160 months ago, and now i see the ti4400's are 180.
The 9700's are very appealing, if I had a p4 2.53 blah blah, that seems to be the only thing they're running them on. Yeah, I've seen a couple reviews, but they were half hearted on AMD side. From looking at things, it seems the Radeon favors intel much more than the mhz numbers in question. And after reading the posts of people on rage3d that actually have the card, it dampens my enthusiasm even more. The list of things that will be fixed in a later driver grows every day. Yeah yeah, all new cards have bugs...I don't buy NEW cards, and even though I could afford it, I don't think I'll be buying this one. It seems like plenty of the hardcore fanatics at rage feel the same way.
Now, with my xp 1800 @ 1691 (ddr, all that good stuff), would I be pleased if I got the ti4400, see a noticeable difference you think? When ut2k3 comes out...finally, that's really what i want it for, my ti200 still runs everything fine of course. And no, I don't care about running it with AA at 1600x and all that crap. Just fast enough at 1024x. I get a new $200 card every six months and never feel guilty.
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Old 08-24-02, 01:37 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geek_
Mr. "Legion" am I to gather that an nvidia fan site based on your conclusions is less bias then a non nvidia fan site? It seems obvious that the question you point out "No, the Radeon 9700 kicks ass, I can't wait in uncertainty and I need a better video card now. The Radeon9700 is it for me." was not intended to have the reaction that you portray. In fact it is posted to appear unreasonable so that a rational voter would not pick it. But it appears that the idea backfired on the "Reverned" (BTW a known nvidia fan.)

[....]

Your arguments hold no water.
Blah, blah, blah.

Lots of words from you but you have nothing to say. In fact, you don't even understand what you said. Imagine that.

I simply pointed out that making a conclusion that Beyond3D is less biased due to the result of an obviously biased poll is faulty logic.

In your infinite non-wisdom, you fanboys twist it around to mean something else. I never claimed, hinted, or suggested that a fan site is "less biased" than a non-fan site. Nevertheless, here it is, you are "asking" whether or not I'm making that statement. Get a clue. Better yet, tell the truth. And don't forget to look up the words "poll" and "bias" in the dictionary.

Only an idiot would even suggest that a choice that says "Radeon 9700 kicks ass" isn't bias. But there you are.

In fact, you are on a smear campaign against Reverend, trying to convince us that Reverend came up with an idea to put up an "unreasonable" choice on purpose so that people would pick the NV30 (the other choice). You went so far as to say that it "backfired"--meaning that people picked the "unreasonable" choice to go against what Reverend tried to do. How is that smear campaign of yours actually helping your viewpoint? It doesn't. You are actually arguing that the poll is biased.

A biased poll cannot be used to claim that a site is less biased than another.
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Old 08-24-02, 02:03 PM   #51
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Hey guys, after reading the "skewed results" comments, I've decided to copy the thread to the Other Video Cards forum. This means it will be open both places, so people who don't come in here can vote too. Enjoy!
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Old 08-24-02, 02:43 PM   #52
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BTW, I'm not sure that the Reverend is 'a known nVidia fan'. He was a 3dfx fan, to be sure. But I think at this point he's just taking the lesser of all available evils, since 3dfx isn't a valid choice any longer. Up until now, that has usually been nVidia hardware. It'll be interesting to see any review / tests he posts to his site on the subject though.
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Old 08-24-02, 06:20 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by legion88
Definition of bias:

A statistical sampling or testing error caused by systematically favoring some outcomes over others.
Skewing the wording of a poll to favor one outcome is certainly one form of testing error. Another is taking a non-representative sample of a population (i.e., using a fan site as a sample [re: biased sample] is inherently erroneous).
Quote:
This same biased poll then is used as an argument that XYZ site is less biased. Faulty logic, faulty conclusion. But typical.
That was never the argument Preserved or anyone else made. The conclusion was based on the bias of the sample, not the polling methods. Sound logic, sound conclusion.
Quote:
Only an idiot would jump to the conclusion that forum members at XYZ site are less biased based on the result of a poll...
Only an idiot would jump to the conclusion that the only way to determine forum members at XYZ site are less biased is from the results of a poll, as opposed to, say... years of posting and reputation.
Quote:
I simply pointed out that making a conclusion that Beyond3D is less biased due to the result of an obviously biased poll is faulty logic.
Just to drive the point home... the logic was that since the members of that site (the sample) are less biased, the poll might be less biased as well. You're accusing Preserved (and those defending him) of reaching a conclusion based on the results of the poll, when he did no such thing. He reached a conclusion about the results of the poll based on the nature of the sample.

And you're accusing us of twisting words?
Quote:
It would be nice if you people actually learn to read prior to responding. But obviously that is asking too much.
Precisely.

Last edited by Bigus Dickus; 08-24-02 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 08-24-02, 06:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by legion88


Blah, blah, blah.

Lots of words from you but you have nothing to say. In fact, you don't even understand what you said. Imagine that.
Hmmm, having watched you spew the same tired drivel year after year after year, he described your tactics to a tee. I don't think any rational person would really think Reverend was actually trying to influence the outcome of his poll by wording one of the choices. Waste your time and do a search on the B3D forums and you might find a fairly recent post from Reverend in which he flat-out states that he personally thinks people should wait for NV30 before deciding which of the two cards to buy. Imagine that.

Don't you ever get tired of spreading libel???
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Old 08-25-02, 09:54 AM   #55
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Picked up a retail box of the Radeon 9700 for $356 shipped overnight Of course its still about a week away!

I sold my GF4ti 4600 for near $300 on ebay so for another $56 I'll give the Radeon 9700 a chance!
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Old 08-25-02, 08:59 PM   #56
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Wow cool info GraveLayer!
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Old 08-26-02, 06:06 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bigus Dickus


[quoting the important stuff...]

Oh look nothing quoted.

Blah, blah, blah lots of words. Bogus claims that your logic was sound. blah, blah, blah.

How is it sound logic to believe that Beyond3D is "less biased" when the only thing you have is an assumption that the results of a poll with biased wording is "less biased"? How is it sound logic to believe that the result of a poll with biased wording is "less biased" when the only thing you have is the assumption that Beyond3D is "less biased"? Wow. A bit circular.

That circle of logic ignores B3D's history of making articles that are more critical of NVIDIA than its competitors (e.g. ATi, 3dfx, PowerVR, S3, whoever), not to mention that B3D forum has a core group of NVIDIA critics that were around long before ATi's fans hit the site. Did this core vote for ATi or did they vote against NVIDIA? Either way, that behavior is certainly not "less biased".

When Reverend posts up his CineFX preview (http://www.ve3d.com/hw/previews/cinefx/), he gets criticized because he didn't do an article on the R300 (Radeon 9700PRO). Reverend even posted corrections to NVIDIA's understanding about the R300 where appropriate but that was not good enough to the "less biased" people. It certainly was not important to the "less biased" people at Beyond3D that ATi didn't give him anything to write an article on. But criticize him for not writing one anyway. Even the timing of the article was considered "suspicious". And we are expected to believe that these are "less biased" people?

And how does one accept this belief that Beyond3D is "less biased" when the poll they are running have biased wording that supports ATI ("Radeon 9700 kicks ass")? How would someone unfamiliar with B3D or NVNews view that choice of words? Are we expected to believe on faith that "Radeon 9700 kicks ass" means that they are "less biased"? You clearly have nothing to present that could remotely support your belief. The choice of words in that poll, not to mention their history, discredits your belief that B3D is "less biased". The only thing you have left is the result of the poll, which is clearly to your liking.

How often do "less biased" people taking polls with biased wording yield "less biased" results? Oh, we know--the results are to your liking, therefore, it is "less biased". Obviously, you people have a lot of faith in certain circular beliefs. And did I forget to mention that your belief system is based on a poll with biased wording ("Radeon 9700 kicks ass")?

The result of that poll cannot be used at all because bias wording brings the clear possibility that the outcome was unnecessarily influenced by the choice of words. It isn't surprising to me that ATi fanboys (and your allies, the NVIDIA critics as well as a certain core group of fans of B3D) insist on using the results of a poll with bias wording as being better; insist that the people at XYZ website is "less biased" when the results supports your cause. It isn't surprising at all.

The truth of the matter is that you people used the results of the poll to substantiate the claim that the people at B3D are "less biased". That way, you can claim that the results are more reliable ("less biased") because the people at B3D are "less biased". Love that circle of logic there. Oh did I also forget to mention that you cannot use the poll to substantiate some bogus claim regarding XYZ site's alleged "less bias"ness?

Regarding the choice of words in the Beyond3D poll,
Quote:
I honestly dunno coz I think I gave the reasons that the NV30 is vapourware and that the 9700 is available now but due to the various insane threads here recently that the word (not product) "NV30" may just make folks re-consider.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewto...r=asc&start=40

Reverend was under the impression that the word "NV30" might cause people to change their vote. To what? He didn't specify. And why would he think that, I don't know either. But I guess we can pretend that was not an admission to influence the outcome (i.e. counteract this unspecified influence that the word "NV30" has over people or perhaps counteracting the perception that there's too many "brainwashed nvidia cultists"--as someone else calls them--in their forums).

Finally, I was under the impression that NVNews gets more hits than Beyond3D. Apparently that is not the case as B3D's poll shows considerably more people participating than NVNews' poll (124 total votes for B3D versus 82 total votes for NVNews). That's a 50% greater participation rate for Beyond3D, not to mention that the 124 votes is the best showing to date for a B3D poll (by about 35%). And both polls were put up the same day (though it looks like NVNews' poll was posted earlier in the day). I didn't realize that B3D was that popular. Or so many fans at NVNews forum are so disinterested in voting for their favorite product.
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Old 08-26-02, 06:53 AM   #58
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I think its safe to say that a poll done over at B3D has a chance to be more accurate in sampling the population vrs a poll at a NV Fan site.
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Old 08-26-02, 07:22 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbirney
I think its safe to say that a poll done over at B3D has a chance to be more accurate in sampling the population vrs a poll at a NV Fan site.
'Ya think?!

It's all about perception and what side of the fence you're sitting on. I was recently told by an ATi fan that B3D's forums are part of the "Nvidia PR machine," while Nvidia fanboys such as Roscoe feel that there's this core of regulars who are anti-Nvidia.

Me, personally, I kinda like sitting on top of the fence. This way I get to sit back and be amused by all the fanboys bickering and arguing constantly over the most minute of things (such as one poll option not being worded perfectly. . .eeek!).

And I remember Roscoe flaming Reverend quite harshly over at 3DGPU for being anti-Nvidia a few years ago.
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Old 08-26-02, 11:43 AM   #60
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Me, personally, I kinda like sitting on top of the fence.
I agree thats the best place. I have done that for awhile and let price, perfromance and the need at the moment sway my buying choiced vrs brand loyality. This has allowed me to try the K2, Gf3, gf4 ti4200 and the 8500 in the past year. Kicker is they all worked well and trouble free for what I needed them to do .....
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