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Old 09-30-07, 02:40 PM   #1
uldgar
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Exclamation Demand on WORKING drivers

Hi everyone,

As all we can see, this forum is full of problems concerning driver problems, most of which are because of bugs or faults in them, this is, because of NVIDIA not making working drivers.

Let me ask you this:
When we buy one (or more) graphic cards from NVIDIA, aren't we supposed to be able to use them at full? Aren't we buying the right to have some very good graphics on our computers? Shouldn't we, Linux users, have the same performance than Windows or OSX users?

I mean, when you buy the card, you're expecting it to work on your computer, no matter which operating system you use. It's NVIDIA's responsibility to have ALL their costumers happy and with no regard to which OS they use their hardware with. It's NVIDIA's responsibility to make working drivers for us all, for every operating system their hardware could be used on. It's their responsibility as we are paying them for our graphics cards, and they have to satisfy their customers.

I know that they're making what they can with the drivers, and that this will get better over time, but we don't need things to get better, we just want WORKING DRIVERS. And by working I mean WORKING, flawlessly, seamlessly, perfectly, with compositing, with SLI, with everything we paid for when buying their hardware. If we liked 2D VGA graphics we wouldn't buy NVIDIA, we'd buy an ATARI or Nintendo.


So, come on folks, lets demand NVIDIA working drivers, as if we are many, they'll have to listen to us. They can make it, it's just ours to demand it.


Cheers.
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Old 09-30-07, 03:11 PM   #2
gbil
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by uldgar
Hi everyone,

As all we can see, this forum is full of problems concerning driver problems, most of which are because of bugs or faults in them, this is, because of NVIDIA not making working drivers.
Wrong, actually most problems reported to this forum are because of precompiled packages (eg. for Ubuntu) then cause of BIOS problems and lastly because of drivers bugs.
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Old 09-30-07, 03:59 PM   #3
lech
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

Agreed, some problems are related to BIOS, ACPI, power management, compiz, packaging even.

But on the other hand, the very same most problems do not occur when using drivers vesa or nv.

From all common GPU vendors, Intel GPUs (open specs!) work usually best. (However, they suck concerning Sound and some WLAN chips).

ATI/AMD noticed that they are to combine their proprietary drivers with existing open source drivers and just decided to open themselves.

If nvidia won't make the same step, they won't get satisfying Linux support ever (while Intel will defend it's lead and AMD/ATI will get better), and we won't buy them any more.
If my T61 would have been availabe with Intel card _and_ support for 4 Gig RAM, I already would not have bought my current NVidia laptop card.

I never understood why an interface spec. (for very obvious functions btw.) should be kept a secret, anyway. If anything, keeping specs secrets result in preventing technologies from success or at least from gaining much more possible market penetration. Examples include smart cards, all-in-one print/scan/fax devices, fingerprint readers, external TV cards, remote controls, some scanners, UMTS modems, ...
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Old 09-30-07, 05:49 PM   #4
nevion
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

Regardless of problems caused by bios and other hardware, the closed nature of nvidia prevents developers from finding and integrating workarounds and causes debugging nightmares to all sorts of developers and hinders usage for all end users -- this is the root cause for the problems posted all over this forum. If the cards were open, the driver would be in the kernel/xorg, there would be no package and no installation issues left to Joe Blow. With it being in a well maintainable place like the kernel/xorg, these problems nvidia takes forever to fix would be fixed in a heart beat since a portion of those people affected would be in a position to actually do something about the problem. There is no better encouragement than that to get such problems fixed (unless you paid such people as well :-).

But Why not? For what reason? Everyone paid their fee to use the hardware, didn't they? Shouldn't we be allowed to use the hardware we purchased to its intent? The hardware is there, just not the software and we are not allowed to make it do what we want,.. that's something I just cannot get over.

I've dealt with many nvidia machines over the years, laptops and desktops alike and I've always been amazed that despite how old suspend (to disk/mem) and resume, nvidia can't get this decade-ago technology to function properly. I've seen the amount of time needed to fix the black windows bug. The problems with sudden rebooting... smp issues... I find it all quite sickening. And on top of it all, dealing with these issues prevents me and many other people from not only getting what they want to done, but getting done what they need done. Wasted man hours, in the millions - disgusting.

Also disgruntling is nvidia's choice of priority for technology support. What percentage of users uses SLI? Contrast that number with how many would like hardware acceleration of h264/wmv9 and various other mpeg4 so as to offload the work from their cpu (for instance to save power since nvidia's hardware can probably do such things with a fraction of the time/power the general purpose cpu needs). In addition to this, it would be safe to assume all laptop owners would like better power management and especially suspend/resume support. These important features seem to be at the back of the queue though...

I demand working drivers.
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Old 09-30-07, 07:58 PM   #5
nvuser07
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

I don't see it as a problem of precompiled distributions, or bios issue.

I compile my own kernels.

And the fact that the previous 09 version works with the same bios but not the recent 11 and 19 drivers does not convince me that it is not a driver issue.

At least I would expect some directions on how to troubleshoot the recent drivers.

The problem is easily recreate-able. The new drivers freeze when we run xengine or glxgears for a few minute if not seconds.
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Old 09-30-07, 10:14 PM   #6
uldgar
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbil
Wrong, actually most problems reported to this forum are because of precompiled packages (eg. for Ubuntu) then cause of BIOS problems and lastly because of drivers bugs.
Ok, I accept my ignorance, but come on, wouldn't everything be easier if NVIDIA made working drivers, or even better, if they released their GPU specifications to the open?

The idea of this thread is to gather all people who are discontent with NVIDIA's way of treating us Linux customers as to see if they listen to us and we get what we want, and what is their responsibility for us to have: WORKING DRIVERS.
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Old 09-30-07, 10:19 PM   #7
evilghost
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

No issues here, perhaps it's user issue?
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Old 10-01-07, 01:11 AM   #8
tier
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilghost
No issues here, perhaps it's user issue?
Funny.
It is a user issue that no one with a nvs 140m can change the backlight brightness of his/her screen? That resuming from swsusp just _doesn't_ work? I am happy that i can put my system into s3 and let it resume properly, but in my opinion nvidia doesn't stand a chance against amd as long as they don't relase their specs to the community.

If i had known earlier, i would have bought an amd card..
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Old 10-01-07, 04:19 AM   #9
Lithorus
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

It's quite funny when people look at a forum dedicated to troubleshooting problems and only find people posting about problems and from that deduct that nothing is working.

Quote:
I mean, when you buy the card, you're expecting it to work on your computer, no matter which operating system you use. It's NVIDIA's responsibility to have ALL their costumers happy and with no regard to which OS they use their hardware with. It's NVIDIA's responsibility to make working drivers for us all, for every operating system their hardware could be used on. It's their responsibility as we are paying them for our graphics cards, and they have to satisfy their customers.
I don't think you have any idea of what you're talking about. Would you expect a Linux binary compiled on Redhat 7.2 to work on a Ubuntu 7.04? They are both Linux distros, so surely Redhat must be responsible of making it work on future and alternate distros.

The fact is that NVIDIA isn't an end to end producer. Like others have mentioned before me, there are several layers on a PC which has to be passed through to get from GFX cards to the CPU. I've seen several threads where people complain with endless rantings about bad NVIDIA drivers only to find out that they infact had a bad PSU.

Did you read through the entire forum and read all threads and from that conclude that most of them was due to bad drivers? Or did you just scim through the latest threads with the biggest letters?
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Old 10-01-07, 04:35 AM   #10
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by lech
But on the other hand, the very same most problems do not occur when using drivers vesa or nv.
That is like saying there are no problems in Windows.

The vesa or nv drivers come pre-installed with the OS. Like Windows came pre-installed on the system. People switch the system on, it works, and they conclude that everything is fine. They did not need their install skills, or their manual reading skills.

Then they are going to install the nvidia drivers and they have problems.
Who tells me the problem is in the nvidia drivers and not in their install skills?
Let them demo a from-scratch install of Windows or a from-source install of vesa or nv. When they can do that and still have problems with the nvidia driver, we have a comparison to discuss. But as it is now, it is not convincing.

(not that I think there are no problems in the nvidia drivers. I think there is a serious issue in the way the driver thinks it knows everything about your monitor by reading the EDID and throws away your config directives because it believes they conflict with the EDID. but that is hopefully being looked at, and fortunately it can usually be worked around)
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Old 10-01-07, 05:29 AM   #11
NoPantsJim
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

I've only been here a short while but I feel your pain. To me it seems like everything 'works', but it's just an uphill battle to achieve that working state. I've gone through all the tutorials and I still can't seem to get things to work right. Most everything is written in terms that someone new to Linux might not understand. It'd be nice to have a tutorial for people like me that are new to the whole experience and would like to get their graphics card working without learning everything there is to know about Linux first.
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Old 10-01-07, 05:55 AM   #12
aesaeion
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Default Re: Demand on WORKING drivers

From day 1 of the 8800GTS cards release I had fewer problems with linux working with the cards then windows. Actually under XP64 I still have more problems with windows then linux. Most forums are full of people that need help so they don't give an accurate viewpoint of the community.

Right now I have 3d accel across all 4 screens I have using xinerama and things are working just fine. I do wish that randr worked across that but that is not something that nvidia can solve. Actually my problems with windows XP64 and Vista 64 (ran for a few days before a driver update killed it) got bad enough that I bought a 360 to go with my Wii and I have not booted windows since. Right now I am actually using kubuntu gusty with the 100.14.19 drivers that are included it in without any issues, before I used them I used envy to install drivers and that worked fine.

I have to admit though if AMD continues to release specs and the drivers look decent my next cards will be AMD cards. I like nvidia cards and their drivers have been pretty good but I much prefer to use an open driver, my experience is that get fixed far faster and have vastly fewer issues.
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