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Old 03-23-08, 02:41 PM   #13
uOpt
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Do the open source r300 drivers run Google Earth OK?
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Old 03-23-08, 02:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

yes great, we all know and agree that for pure 3d applications nvidia rules the roost. But many of us are quite unhappy with the 2d aspect of the cards. Thing like exa could be intergrated into an open driver and the sheer fact that x and kernel developers can look into it and make adjustments would enable the driver to integrate much better with linux in general (kernel modesetting anyone?).

The 3d sections of the driver I imagine share a lot code with the windows driver, but the modesetting and 2d aspects of the driver I imagine have to be written more specifically for linux.

the problems I see most often on this forum is not 3d performance sucks but are instead
refresh rates and modesetting , 2d performance, tv out problems, suspend and hibernate and visual bugs (true both on 3d and 2d) and video. It may be because linux users in general care less about games, but these are the things that matter the most to us. Yes, great we can play ut2004 on our gfx cards, but then again for most people thats why they keep windows around (Its the only reason I have a windows partition).

So most people view an open driver as the easiest way to get what they want i.e. focus on linux desktop and less on pure gaming performance. Its true that both of these are not mutually exclusive but with open drivers people know that what people want the most generally gets worked on the most.

A lot of the Intel driver developers are X or developers that work on graphics subsytems in linux and it shows in their driver. They are not necessarily the fastest but for desktop performance the quality of the driver shows that even with the brute force approach of nvidia gpus cant give good performance on the desktop vs a good driver on a pathetic gpu.
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Old 03-23-08, 02:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b
you can't surf the web?

So what are you doing just now?

And why didn't I ever had problems? Not with my 5200, 6600 or 8600GT?
There's a little word "almost".
You've got more luck?

@NvFuchs
You're propably right. But nouveau driver was doing better in some tests (2D) than nvidia binary driver. I think that if guys from nouveau will get specifications they will make better drivers than nvidia developers.

@uOpt
Is open source r300 driver ready? It's not so propably not right now.
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Old 03-23-08, 06:19 PM   #16
Gregor A.
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt
Do the open source r300 drivers run Google Earth OK?
On my:
RV250 Radeon 9000PRO/9000, M9

with the Open Source Radeon driver run Google Earth & ut2004 fine...

The old card is not the fastest in 3D but everything work fine ...

from:
man radeon

DESCRIPTION
radeon is an Xorg driver for ATI RADEON based video cards. It contains full sup‐
port for 8, 15, 16 and 24 bit pixel depths, dual-head setup, flat panel, hardware
2D acceleration, hardware 3D acceleration, hardware cursor, XV extension, and the
Xinerama extension.

SUPPORTED HARDWARE
The radeon driver supports PCI and AGP video cards based on the following ATI
chips

R100 Radeon 7200

RV100 Radeon 7000(VE), M6, RN50/ES1000

RS100 Radeon IGP320(M)

RV200 Radeon 7500, M7, FireGL 7800

RS200 Radeon IGP330(M)/IGP340(M)

RS250 Radeon Mobility 7000 IGP

R200 Radeon 8500, 9100, FireGL 8800/8700

RV250 Radeon 9000PRO/9000, M9

RS300 Radeon 9100 IGP

RS350 Radeon 9200 IGP

RS400 Radeon XPRESS 200/200M IGP (2d only)

RV280 Radeon 9200PRO/9200/9200SE, M9+

R300 Radeon 9700PRO/9700/9500PRO/9500/9600TX, FireGL X1/Z1

R350 Radeon 9800PRO/9800SE/9800, FireGL X2

R360 Radeon 9800XT

RV350 Radeon 9600PRO/9600SE/9600, M10/M11, FireGL T2

RV360 Radeon 9600XT

RV370 Radeon X300, M22

RV380 Radeon X600, M24

RV410 Radeon X700, M26 PCIE

R420 Radeon X800 AGP

R423/R430 Radeon X800, M28 PCIE

R480/R481 Radeon X850 PCIE/AGP
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Old 03-23-08, 06:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor A.
On my:
RV250 Radeon 9000PRO/9000, M9

with the Open Source Radeon driver run Google Earth & ut2004 fine...

The old card is not the fastest in 3D but everything work fine ...
and it took them many years to get there. Years of lockups (when you moved a xv window 'out' of the screen for example) and extreme slowness.
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Old 03-24-08, 05:19 AM   #18
pawels133
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

@energyman76b

And so? They've got a good, stable and open driver. In many cases it's far more important than performance. How long nvidia users need to wait for good 2D acceleration, stability and 3D graphics without artifacts? Years of lockups and extreme slowness (when I open just a few tabs in Firefox or Konqueror).
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Old 03-24-08, 05:29 AM   #19
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linuxhippy
It may be true for very old AMD chipsets (like the r200), but for newer ones (r300 was released in 2002) you don't get descent performance or render accaleration at all.
Render Acceleration is now nearly completely supported with EXA on r300/r400 GPUs.

Adam
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Old 03-24-08, 06:03 AM   #20
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawels133
@energyman76b

And so? They've got a good, stable and open driver. In many cases it's far more important than performance. How long nvidia users need to wait for good 2D acceleration, stability and 3D graphics without artifacts? Years of lockups and extreme slowness (when I open just a few tabs in Firefox or Konqueror).

and that driver needed YEARS to not crash computers on an hourly basis. So can you stop your bull****ting? Just releasing specs or driver sources does not magically create a good driver in the next 24h. But some of you seem to believe that.

Besides, I really would like to see the performance of that open drivers. 2d please. I only had seen a comparism many years ago - and the open ATI drivers sucked in every aspect.

However - I really can't reproduce your 'slowness' problems. My 2d is fast and snappy. But hey, I don't use a crap distri...
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Old 03-24-08, 07:07 AM   #21
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b
and that driver needed YEARS to not crash computers on an hourly basis. So can you stop your bull****ting? Just releasing specs or driver sources does not magically create a good driver in the next 24h. But some of you seem to believe that.

Besides, I really would like to see the performance of that open drivers. 2d please. I only had seen a comparism many years ago - and the open ATI drivers sucked in every aspect.

However - I really can't reproduce your 'slowness' problems. My 2d is fast and snappy. But hey, I don't use a crap distri...
You don't seem to realize that everyone's experience with the nvidia drivers is different. Some people have had a really difficult time getting them to work even reasonably well.

As for the open ATI drivers sucking in every aspect years ago... Again, everyone's experience will be different. I've been using the r300 open source drivers since they were in the earliest development stages. Before that, i was using the open source r200 drivers, and the open source r100 drivers (heck, I still have a first generation radeon mobility).

Many people would rather support a company that releases specifications and pays developers to work on open source drivers so that they can be part of the development progress. As a user, they can see what is being worked on, and watch as it gets fixed. True, maybe the performance will never be as good as the geforce 8800, but not everyone needs/wants an 8800.

Speaking only for myself... I'd rather have a driver where I can report a bug and watch it get fixed, rather than a driver where I report the bug on some forum and hope that it even gets acknowledged by nvidia.

Adam
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Old 03-24-08, 07:36 AM   #22
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b
and that driver needed YEARS to not crash computers on an hourly basis. So can you stop your bull****ting? Just releasing specs or driver sources does not magically create a good driver in the next 24h. But some of you seem to believe that.

Besides, I really would like to see the performance of that open drivers. 2d please. I only had seen a comparism many years ago - and the open ATI drivers sucked in every aspect.

However - I really can't reproduce your 'slowness' problems. My 2d is fast and snappy. But hey, I don't use a crap distri...
I have only expressed my opinion and maybe I'm wrong (but I think that you don't know what are you talking about). It's good that you don't have problems with 2D acceleration. I tried many distributions such as ArchLinux, Fedora 8 and FreeBSD 7 (oh, I tried Gentoo too). Are they all craps? Sounds like fanboy to me.
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Old 03-24-08, 09:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b
However - I really can't reproduce your 'slowness' problems. My 2d is fast and snappy. But hey, I don't use a crap distri...
You can't seem to accept that not everyone is happy with 2d acceleration. Somehow also insisting you can play ut2004 on your card somehow means that what we want isn't important.

I'm glad you're happy with 2d acceleration but many of us have higher standards
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Old 03-24-08, 09:43 AM   #24
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Default Re: Open-Source ATI R500 3D Milestone!

Maybe many people just have broken settings.

I can compare the 2D Acceleration in Linux to the one
in Windows, as

a) I have a Windows installation
b) many students have the same notebook, but running windows

and I also compared to intel accelerated graphics notebooks.

2D Acceleration is fast enough here, except in some Applications,
but then:

- Seems to me that all of them are using the GIMPToolKit.
- In apps like firefox it depends on other things, like
--- the site is still loading
--- the site is filled up with flash / js, which creates about 95% CPU Load

However, I was happy with my nvidia card in my desktop
(GeForce 4 4400 something)
and the nvidia cards in my 2 previous laptops and
the one in my current laptop (quadro nvs140m)

As for stability: I am playing around with compiz,
playing 3D games, working with OpenGL for my studies.
Almost never experienced crashes.

Even suspend (s3 and s4) works here.

As I am kind of "the linux guy" for other students I
supported a lot of installations on other notebooks,
some of them with ati graphics.
Compared to nvidia this was always a pain in the arse.
</personal experience and personal opinion>

Fuchs
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