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Old 04-07-08, 01:44 PM   #13
Linuxhippy
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Recently I had the pleasure of installing linux on a intel chipset laptop and was shocked with 3d working out of the box and not having to install proprietary drivers... that was nice.
I can just speak about my box (945GM, Core2Duo 2x2ghz) which performs quite ok with the closed-source Windows drivers (can play even some more modern games), but completly sucks on Linux.
Even Quake3 and Tuxracer seem to be too much to play at anything at lowest detail setting, whereas on Windows both games work well.

So, if I could decide between closed-source and working, and open-source but slow and buggy, I would decide for closed. Furthermore as long as you can't access the silicon you're always in a vendor trap.

lg clemens
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Old 04-08-08, 05:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by Linuxhippy
I can just speak about my box (945GM, Core2Duo 2x2ghz) which performs quite ok with the closed-source Windows drivers (can play even some more modern games), but completly sucks on Linux.
Even Quake3 and Tuxracer seem to be too much to play at anything at lowest detail setting, whereas on Windows both games work well.

So, if I could decide between closed-source and working, and open-source but slow and buggy, I would decide for closed. Furthermore as long as you can't access the silicon you're always in a vendor trap.

lg clemens
That's so stupid example. Compare 945GM closed source Linux (not windows!) driver to open source one. Are you suggesting that if NVIDIA will open their drivers they will 'magically' break?
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Old 04-08-08, 08:56 AM   #15
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by pawels133
That's so stupid example. Compare 945GM closed source Linux (not windows!) driver to open source one.
There are simply no closed-source 945GM drivers.
So if I would have the choice between the open-source drivers as they currently are, and better working closed drivers I would decide for the closed ones.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that if NVIDIA will open their drivers they will 'magically' break?
So you really think they will open up their shader-compiler - so that AMD could simply pick some optimization strategies out of it? The thing which has costed millions to develop and which is full of secrets?
Or you think they will open-up the SGI's opengl implementation they rely on, which does not even belong to them?
Should they open all their work-arround code which has taken years to write, and makes the drivers useful and stable even on the crappiest hardware?
Yes, AMD does support open-source driver development now, but those are crappy mesa-based drivers (more or less the same as the 945GM driver), nothing even far compareable to the binary driver.

However, what I would use has nothing to do with what I will buy.
For me good open drivers have become a buying criteria, because they at least to some degree guarantee that the card will be useful even if the manufacturer doesn't care. The open-source drivers will even become better over time, whereas I need all stupid tricks and old kernels to keep the rusty binary stuff up&running.
With a new AMD graficcard I can be sure that at least enough documentation is published to write generic 2D and 3D drivers, which is a better than promise from a proprietary vendor that stuff will stay supported.

So instead of crying again and again for open-drivers here, I would suggest you simply buy hardware from another vendor next time. Both Intel & AMD cards have now NDA-free specs available, and open-source drivers are available.


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Nope, Linux is just evolving much faster than others.
Well, if you call it "evolving" if any driver which is not in the kernel-tree breaks every 2-3 revisions, yes then it evolves. In my opinion those guys simple put not-well-thought code in production, have a look at it later, and replace it because they see it doesn't work as intended.
Have a look at the WLAN mess with Linux - I guess they changed the framework which should be used for new drivers ... now ... I guess the 3rd time.
I use Linux only, but I am also "man enough" to admit that at some tasks Windows has some advantages.

lg Clemens
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Old 04-08-08, 09:51 AM   #16
pawels133
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by Linuxhippy
There are simply no closed-source 945GM drivers.
So if I would have the choice between the open-source drivers as they currently are, and better working closed drivers I would decide for the closed ones.
Right. There's no closed-source drivers for 945GM. There's no even good closed-source drivers for NVIDIA cards. Open drivers will be probably much better in near future (as Linux is right now compared to Windows), but devs need some time.

Quote:
Should they open all their work-arround code which has taken years to write, and makes the drivers useful and stable even on the crappiest hardware?
Yes, AMD does support open-source driver development now, but those are crappy mesa-based drivers (more or less the same as the 945GM driver), nothing even far compareable to the binary driver.
Yes, they should make drivers useful on their own hardware. AMD does support open-source driver development for *very* short time. But this os drivers are in some cases ways better than binary ones.

Quote:
Well, if you call it "evolving" if any driver which is not in the kernel-tree breaks every 2-3 revisions, yes then it evolves. In my opinion those guys simple put not-well-thought code in production, have a look at it later, and replace it because they see it doesn't work as intended.
Have a look at the WLAN mess with Linux - I guess they changed the framework which should be used for new drivers ... now ... I guess the 3rd time.
I use Linux only, but I am also "man enough" to admit that at some tasks Windows has some advantages.
Yes, it's evolving. Not staying at the same level for years. If they developed better framework why not to change it? LOL. What advantages does windows have?
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Old 04-08-08, 09:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by Linuxhippy

So instead of crying again and again for open-drivers here, I would suggest you simply buy hardware from another vendor next time. Both Intel & AMD cards have now NDA-free specs available, and open-source drivers are available.
Or If you can't/won't change vendors then I suggest you support Nouveau (which aside from phoronix does not get discussed much at all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawels133
Yes, it's evolving. Not staying at the same level for years. If they developed better framework why not to change it? LOL. What advantages does windows have?
Seemingly that closed drivers are possible because kernel interfaces don't change for long periods of time (less maintainace), which of course does not work for linux 'cos the kernel is constantly evolving.
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Old 04-08-08, 05:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by pawels133
Right. There's no closed-source drivers for 945GM. There's no even good closed-source drivers for NVIDIA cards. Open drivers will be probably much better in near future (as Linux is right now compared to Windows), but devs need some time.
Do you really believe nouveau will offer anything compareable to the binary nvidia drivers anytime soon (next 3-5 years)?
The have even problems with 2D, where my NV18 is able to do 1,5mio subpixel-aa'ed glyphs per second with the binary drivers, and 80.000 with nouveau.

I think its great what the nouveau are doing, and I hope it will lead to a useable XRender implementation based on EXA, but for now its rather a better-than-nv fallback than a replacement for the binary drivers.

Quote:
But this os drivers are in some cases ways better than binary ones.
When?
My girlfriend has an RV420 (released some years ago), and 2D accaleration was so bad using the open-source drivers I had to revert to no accaleration using XaaNoOffscreenPixmaps.
Exa was not a lot better either.

Quote:
Yes, it's evolving. Not staying at the same level for years. If they developed better framework why not to change it? LOL. What advantages does windows have?
Well, if it would evolve a little less, maybe many users would have had useable wlan drivers much longer.
I was one of the happy customers of an atmel powered card, which has a clever controller inside (does not need a lot of framework code), but except intel it _was_ extremly dark for wlan on Linux.
Shouldn't it make developers thinking, if something like ndiswrapper has to be built?

Quote:
Or If you can't/won't change vendors then I suggest you support Nouveau (which aside from phoronix does not get discussed much at all)
Yes, i would also recommend supporting Nouveau!

lg Clemens
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Old 04-08-08, 05:57 PM   #19
txf
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

I've never had problems with wlan, but then I've always used intel (and a zydas based usb dongle, worked out of the box). The reason being that both supported open drivers. The likes of Atheros and Broadcom have been terrible in this area, and the oss drivers that relate to these manufacturers have been reverse engineered so it's not surprising that they started out hackish and constantly need improvement. Perhaps if more manufacturers supported linux then there wouldn't be so much flux in the wlan framework.

I believe that the current mac802.11 framework is going to stick around, someone correct me if I'm wrong but this new framework is meant to make wlan drivers more standardised by reducing userspace daemons.

The same thing is the case with nouveau...only the very luck will initially get good support but at least they are being quite forward looking by using gallium etc.

the oss radeon driver is eventually going to have to transition to dri2 and to gallium etc. and its going to suck. That is the way with linux , start with a hack, then rewrite, then newer generalised frameworks take over, then rewrite.

The same happens with closed software, but as the frameworks are more static and the fact that say windows development has far more resources these things are far less visible, yet still examples can be seen in the form of nvidia's inital vista driver model support, it took them about 7 months before the drivers could be called stable ffs.

The Impression I get is that nividia (and ati) has a kind of windows mentality to driver development (other than non oss drivers) in that they don't release often and that they are fairly monolithic;Developing various bits at the same time in one release as opposed to the Intel development whereby all sorts of features are worked on in branches and then merged in the future.

To those of us that care for the visibility of oss driver development, the black hole of closed drivers is like being blind. I'm no free software zealot but I wish at least nvidia would communicate more with it's linux users, which would reduce the sting of closed drivers.

urgh...I didn't mean to write an essay, it just sorta fell out
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Old 04-08-08, 06:31 PM   #20
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

Comparing how games run in between windows and linux is stupid, even with a native opengl game which should run fine under Linux. Games are optimised to run under windows and games are what keeps Windows around.

Nvidia will not be revealing how pixel and vertex shaders and SPs are implemented in hardware by releasing an OSS driver... all they need to do is release a working # spec per gfx hardware and an ICD on how to interface with the hardware and to really help out a hack at an OSS driver even with limited hardware support and let the OSS community take care of the rest. It's how things should be... frankly they've only made life more difficult for themselves by having to support these proprietary drivers. I understand why other companies are going open and concentrating on developing new and better hardware and I'm amazed Nvidia hasn't done it yet.

Having said this I would also take a working closed driver over a non working (or poorly performing OSS driver) any day. I also fully support Nvidia's right to do whatever they wish for their hardware driver support just like I support my right to buy another vendor's hardware in the future if I'm unhappy with the state of the Nvidia driver support.

Back on topic though:

Nvidia should OSS legacy card support! Please do it! There's no reason NOT to do it!
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Old 04-08-08, 06:54 PM   #21
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Edit: I just discovered this to myself, didn't know this is that bad: Linux is used in ~ 0.5% of computers... MacOS about 2.8%...
I don't know where you are getting your "information" but it is TOTALLY INCORRECT. Those that have been looking at this is detail over the last few years have found that the world wide installed base of end user Linux machines (IE. non-servers) was about equal to the Mac installed base in Dec. 2004. Projections at that time were that it would grow to about 6% by the end to 2006 and to 10% by the end of 2010. The actual growth rate has been higher than projected and the current installed bases is close to 9% of all end user computers (IE. approx 3 times the size of the Mac installed base) and currently the installed base of end user Linux machines is growing much faster than any other OS.

Please take the cross hairs off your foot before you pull the trigger. We do ourselves and everyone else a disservice when we don't have our facts straight.
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Old 04-09-08, 05:00 AM   #22
Linuxhippy
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by Niva
Comparing how games run in between windows and linux is stupid, even with a native opengl game which should run fine under Linux. Games are optimised to run under windows and games are what keeps Windows around.
In my previous post I was referring to tuxracer (developed on/for Linux) and Quake3. The Q3A source is available, could you please state how it has been optimized to run under Windows, please?

lg Clemens
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Old 04-09-08, 05:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by Linuxhippy
In my previous post I was referring to tuxracer (developed on/for Linux) and Quake3. The Q3A source is available, could you please state how it has been optimized to run under Windows, please?

lg Clemens
LOL. It has been made for windows and then just ported to Linux. Not made for Linux!
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Old 04-09-08, 10:03 AM   #24
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Default Re: Petition : Please release the source code for legacy nvidia cards

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Originally Posted by pawels133
LOL. It has been made for windows and then just ported to Linux. Not made for Linux!
I doubt that, but who cares, have you had a look at the sources?
I had because I used it as playground and there is no single line "optimized for windows".
After all, what so you understand when you say "optimized" for windows?

The same goes for Q3A.

lg Clemens
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