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Old 07-11-08, 08:59 AM   #73
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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Yet its not an opinion. Its math. It's clearly obvious. And if you've done nothing but make snide comments at me and remarks and argue semantics with me. Heck even Nvidia says the problem's I've encountered in these tests are memory related. I wish I had the luxury of 1 liner staw man semantical arguments. The data is clearly in front of you.. But instead of talking about the data in question. You attack the person presenting it because you have nothing else to go on. Good Game Medion. Good Game. I'll just run around on forums and start making things up like. "High bandwith mitigates the need for memory footprint!" It seems to work for some people.
You're on the defensive, and whining, just as I predicted. Ready for another 2 week vacation? Seriously, I've explained to you why your tests are invalid. You're one of those guys who is incredibly book smart, dare I say brilliant, but common sense just escapes you at times. Look at your own data. No **** a GTX280 is faster than a 9800GTX! That's not rocket science!

If you want to say that memory bandwidth is the reason for X, Y, or Z, then you need to eliminate variables A through W. You need to take the exact same cards with 2 different memory configs, SLI them, and run at high res with high AA. Stress the memory alone. Using different cards leads to different results that are not exclusively based on memory.

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BAHAHAHAHA!!

CR has more knowledge of this stuff in his left testicle than 3/4 of the people on this forum (myself included).
I know this forum has some serious CR fanboys. Unfortunately, he feels that his intelligence makes him better than others, and he belittles others for it. His attacks on Xion were not necessary.
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Old 07-11-08, 09:18 AM   #74
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

Except. I havent just been using the 9800GTX + as an example. I've used multiple examples. Stating problems with 512 cards and comparing it to 896 Meg cards, ((GTX 260)) 768 meg cards((8800GTX)) and 1 gig cards ((GTX 280)) and compared it to multiple configurations. My 16xQ/8xQ problems with games crashing. Your either not understanding it or burying your head in the sand regarding it because it doesnt jive with your what you think.

Running out of memory is the "Easiest" thing in the world to test. Because framerate plummets and large micro stuttering are easily observed in any situation that it happens. In some cases titles won't even run.

1) I have showed resolution scaling of the memory problem on multiple tests and platforms.
9800GTX, 8800GT, 9800GX2 and 8800GTX

9800GX2. verses GTX 260 verses GTX 280.

2) You have completely dismissed my points where these problem consist consistently such as 16xQ/8xQ hard crashes on the 512 meg configurations. Specially as the AA memory consumption is raised. Please offer another explanation. I'd really be innterested in the explanation for this one.

3) The Framebuffer consumption formula that I posted. Which is consistent with the rest of the data I have illustrated here.


And what have you done? Oh wait. You tell me my data cant be taken at face value because the cards tested are different. I never said that the memory was the only attribute to performance differences between. But ALL the data in these specific circumstances point to the memory being inadequate. Its funny you mention common sense. Because common sense here should prevail. But clearly it hasn't with you.


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I know this forum has some serious CR fanboys. Unfortunately, he feels that his intelligence makes him better than others, and he belittles others for it. His attacks on Xion were not necessary.
Thats such a load of crap. The only thing that annoys me is people who pull figures out of their hind quarters. Like some people here are choosing to do. And when confronted with facts and figures. Bury their heads in the sand. Like your choosing to do. This is not a question of whether or not I think I'm smarter than you. Its an annoyance on how you've gone out of your way to ignore the data and just attack the person presenting it. I especially love your 2 week vacation thing. As a matter of fact. I wont/dont post at rage3d anymore. And my vacation was requested by the folks at Nvidia due to the fact that I had been worked to the bone during all my free time for the last 4 months with consecutive product releases. Now I'll just wait for the typical uninformed "You get your hardware for free".

I really must congradulate you. You've managed to take a thread about memory consumption with facts and figures. And make it about me. Like I said. Good Game Medion.
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Old 07-11-08, 09:40 AM   #75
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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Except. I havent just been using the 9800GTX + as an example. I've used multiple examples. Stating problems with 512 cards and comparing it to 896 Meg cards, ((GTX 260)) 768 meg cards((8800GTX)) and 1 gig cards ((GTX 280)) and compared it to multiple configurations.
OMG, you're still not grasping it! Those are different cards! Speed differences are not just due to memory, but overall power of the card in different areas! If you want to test the effects of memory, and only memory, you have to use the same exact card with different memory configs!

It is such a simple concept, and you just cannot seem to grasp it! Like I said Chris, you're technically brilliant, but sometimes common sense just seems to escape you.
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Old 07-11-08, 09:45 AM   #76
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

No I get your point. But its irrelevant. When a 512 meg card cant complete a test due to having insufficient memory. While a 768 meg card can. The speed of the cards is a non issue. 90% of the time a 9800GTX performs better than an 8800GTX. Even if just by a few percent. But when that memory bottleneck kicks in. The 9800GTX falls flat on its face. You can have the fastest GPU architecture in the world. But if you slap 256 megs of memory on it. It will just die.

Also there are plenty of tests out there with similar cards but different memory configurations which reinforce this theory. Look at the 8800GTS 320 scaling verses the 8800GTS 640. Everytime the 8800GTS 320 runs out of memory. It exhibits the same issues as these 512 cards are exhibiting in the circumstances I've pointed out here. Memory bottlenecks are not a hard thing to observe and point out. They are one of the most obvious types of bottlenecks seen at high end gaming.

You keep saying I lack common sense. Yet my point has been consistent. And despite what you think. The evidence I have shown clearly examples that point.
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Old 07-11-08, 09:50 AM   #77
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

I'm just going to have to disagree on the same grounds, but all we'll end up doing is repeating ourselves. I'll leave it at that.
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Old 07-11-08, 09:53 AM   #78
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

You can agree to disagree with me all you like. I'm disagreeing with you on grounds of testing and evidence.. A 768 meg card can complete a test. Despite it typically being slower while a 512 meg card cannot. Yet when you lower the resolution or AA to a managable framebuffer pool. The 512 card not only complete the tests. But performs competitively/better than the 768 meg card. Yes they are different pieces of hardware. But the problem is bleedingly obvious.
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Old 07-11-08, 10:07 AM   #79
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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Originally Posted by Medion
I know this forum has some serious CR fanboys. Unfortunately, he feels that his intelligence makes him better than others, and he belittles others for it. His attacks on Xion were not necessary.
It's all good. I lost respect for this guy a while back when he sent me a PM on Rage3D cursing me like an army sergeant because he didn't like how I disagreed with him on a certain topic.

He knows a lot about graphics architecture, but unfortunately I think some of his bias is seeping into some of these arguments. Some of these arguments he's spinning about like "artificial memory bottlenecks" and trying to accomplish a control measure with multiple cards and different architectures is very amusing to say the least. He talks about how 512 limits performance on prior Nvidia cards and then tries to apply it to the masses/ATI. Well I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way; you're dealing with an architecture that is quite different. He completely ignores how it doesn't limit performance on the 4800-series. I don't know how many benchmarks I can show the 4800 running games at highest settings at 2560x resolution faster than the 1GB GTX280 before it'll sink in.

In general, I agree with his observation that more VRAM is a good thing. But there are workarounds--the impact can be lessened, otherwise the 4800-series would be tanking at some of these graphics settings in these benchmarks at 2560x.

As most things in life, it's not a black or white issue. There are other variables that come into play.
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Old 07-11-08, 11:05 AM   #80
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

Umm all of you are talking about how the 4800 series are running some games @2560x1600 at fast framerate , but what about the hiccups/stuttering/hitches during gameplay ? AFAIK most reviews dont talk about that or focus on that issue. i recall how my X1900XT 512MB was playing Oblivion decently with QTP3 installed - framerate wise - , but hitches every once in a while due to video memory limitaions. it was annoying.
(another older exmaple is CoD1 when veryhigh/extra textures are used , 128MB cards like 9800Pros ran good but with hiccups , 256MB cards like 9800XT's ran smoothly)
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Old 07-11-08, 11:20 AM   #81
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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Originally Posted by SH64 View Post
Umm all of you are talking about how the 4800 series are running some games @2560x1600 at fast framerate , but what about the hiccups/stuttering/hitches during gameplay ? AFAIK most reviews dont talk about that or focus on that issue. i recall how my X1900XT 512MB was playing Oblivion decently with QTP3 installed - framerate wise - , but hitches every once in a while due to video memory limitaions. it was annoying.
(another older exmaple is CoD1 when veryhigh/extra textures are used , 128MB cards like 9800Pros ran good but with hiccups , 256MB cards like 9800XT's ran smoothly)
Ya but I think in the end. If you are going to put the card in situations that it will have some occasional hitching and so on by using ultra texture packs in new games or trying to run Crysis all HIGH at 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF (which is too slow on GTX260 to begin with), you better cough up the $500+ to get the GTX280.

I think argueing about a $289 - $319 card's memory limitations in extreme situations is kind of silly. The GTX260 is not really going to have all that much advantage in that regard. By the time 512MB is not mainstream enough to enjoy a title on 22" LCD, new cards will be out anyway. The 8800GTX's dominance since 2 years ago was not it's RAM it was how incredibly freaking powerfull it's GPU is. As evidenced by this years G92 varients in the same games at the same settings.

Just to see about this whole "hitching" thing I will play the entire next level of Crysis in ALL HIGH mode with 1680x1050 and see how it goes. As long as the framerates stay over 40 I am happy I guess. But after that I will still turn a few items to medium as I am not happy unless I am getting over 50 in fps's 90% of the time. It's just how I am made.

Hey! Is there a way to know how much framebuffer I am using in Crysis? r_displayinfo=1 does not seem to say anything. It says RAM 1100MB or something sometimes but I think that is how much RAM is in use only.

C.
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Old 07-11-08, 11:56 AM   #82
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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Umm all of you are talking about how the 4800 series are running some games @2560x1600 at fast framerate , but what about the hiccups/stuttering/hitches during gameplay ? AFAIK most reviews dont talk about that or focus on that issue.
The reason they don't discuss it is probably because it doesn't happen and not because of some imaginable problem. Otherwise, you'd see these "hiccups" impacting framerate considerably in the benches--not putting the 4800 out in front of the 280.
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Old 07-11-08, 12:07 PM   #83
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

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The only thing that annoys me is people who pull figures out of their hind quarters.
Yeah, that gets me too. Like those who post subjective benchmarks (with their own name on them, for example) with a control measure consisting of entirely different architectures.
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Old 07-11-08, 01:21 PM   #84
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Default Re: The right price for the GTX200 family...

Control measures? The benchmarks are what they are. I'm perfectly open to discuss how they are done. Now your accusing me of fabricating benchmarks? I urge anyone with a 512 Nvidia card to test the conditions I have represented and tell me everything works fine and dandy.

So. Prove me wrong.

Show me UT3 running @ 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 with 8xMS or 16xQ without issue and crashes.

Show me FEAR running @ UT3 @ 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 with 8x MQ or 16xQ without issues and crashes.

Show me NWN2 running @ 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 with 8x MS or 16xQ Enhanced AA without maximum details without issues.

Show me Crysis running @ Very High with 4xAA/16xAA and then compare the performance drop off between 1680x1050 and on 512 megs. Next do it with high and compare the performance drop off between 1920x1080 and 1920x1200. I'm talking about in gamme results and not canned time demos.


Next put a 768 Meg card, 896 or 1 gigabyte card, And show me the same. ((You wont reproduce that one)). Yes there are work arounds to all these conditions and problems, But they are compromises to lesson the framebuffer load. When your spending 500 + on Multi GPU setups. You dont pay that kind of money to compromise on things like texture or shadow quality just because your framebuffer cant handle it. On these setups. I had to make compromises to even quality or HQ at times. To make them even remotely comparable benchmarks with existing products. I could easily have made every 512 card there was fall to its knees and do what the 9800GTX + is doing in Crysis. But I chose not to do that to give the 9800GX2 a fair shake so that "artificial" limitation didnt make the game look 400% slower on the 9800GX2 when compared to the GTX 280. Sometimes you have to make sacrafices to ensure valid comparisons. And I'm certain other reviewers have had to do it too. The 9800GTX + SLI is easily faster than the GTX 280 in any mode where it doesnt have to compromise on its framebuffer. But that doesnt make it a more ideal solution.


You guys may think there's no market for these resolutions. But there is. And people do use them.

Quote:
Yeah, that gets me too. Like those who post subjective benchmarks (with their own name on them, for example) with a control measure consisting of entirely different architectures.
I put my name on my benchmarks because I spend alot of time on them. Its no different than anandtech putting anandtech on their graphs. So people know where the data is from. Its pretty common practice.


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It's all good. I lost respect for this guy a while back when he sent me a PM on Rage3D cursing me like an army sergeant because he didn't like how I disagreed with him on a certain topic.
I cant help but chuckle. Werent you the one who said you wanted to remain civil. You have been anything but civil to me in every encounter I have ever had with you. You are unwilling to talk about the data I am discussing. So you just choose to bag me.


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I think argueing about a $289 - $319 card's memory limitations in extreme situations is kind of silly. The GTX260 is not really going to have all that much advantage in that regard. By the time 512MB is not mainstream enough to enjoy a title on 22" LCD, new cards will be out anyway. The 8800GTX's dominance since 2 years ago was not it's RAM it was how incredibly freaking powerfull it's GPU is. As evidenced by this years G92 varients in the same games at the same settings.
Your right. If your buying 1 card and sticking with 4x MSAA @ 1680x1050 resolution You are unlikely to encounter many problems with most software. At least not within the given 1 year time frame. Lets assume 1 card purchase is a 1 year investment. But if you buy 2. Then your automatically doing so in an attempt to either raise the settings or the resolutions. In which case multi GPUing a buncha 512 cards is silly. Their potential in fillrate is limited by their total available framebuffer. With regards to the 8800GTX. Yes its a good card. But the 9800GTX + is easily faster than it in settings that dont hamper its framebuffer. Once that framebuffer is exceeded. The 8800GTX pulls far ahead of the 9800GTX despite the 9800GTX's superior shading capabilities and bandwith saving color compression,
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