Go Back   nV News Forums > Hardware Forums > Benchmarking And Overclocking

Newegg Daily Deals

View Poll Results: Are they cheating again?
Yes 132 67.01%
No 53 26.90%
I don't have a clue by four. 12 6.09%
Voters: 197. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-15-03, 08:23 AM   #121
nVidi0t
Quad Damage
 
nVidi0t's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: San Fancisco. CA
Posts: 1,569
Send a message via ICQ to nVidi0t
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Nemesis77
Let me repeat: 3DMark03 is designed to be limited by the VID-CARD, not by the CPU! That's why the speed of the CPU has only marginal effect of the final score. As it should be, since the purpose of the benchmark is to measure the speed of the VID-CARD!
That's what makes it a poor benchmark to show real gaming performance, hence, I dont understand what the big deal is with making optimizations for it if it does not affect what the customers are buying it for.
__________________
System: Intel Core 2 e6600 @ 3.6ghz (450*8) @ 1.475v | Koolance Exos 2 Water Cooler | 4096Mb Mushkin ASCENT 8500 @ 2.1v @ 1160Mhz| Asus P5k Deluxe P35 'bearlake' 804bios | PC Power & Cooling Silencer 850W| BFG 8800GT OC2 675Mhz | 150GB WD Raptor X | Seagate Barracuda 250GB SATA | Lian Li V2000 PC2 Case | Pioneer DL Burner | Creative Sound Blaster X-FI FATAL1TY FPS | Dell 2707WFP 27" LCD | Windows Vista Ultimate | Sennheiser HD-590 Prestige/Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones w/ Emmeline Hornet Amp | Razer Deathadder | Razer tarantula Keyboard |
nVidi0t is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 08:24 AM   #122
ZoinKs!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 104
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by nVidi0t
No, because I have tested it, and major differences to system spec, but not changing the display card does not affect performance in the benchmark, yet in games, the average FPS is 50% faster.
That's because the benchmark score only comes from vidcard performance. The rest of the system doesn't affect the score by much... which is exactly how a vidcard bench should operate.

Quote:
It shows all the specs, and allows you to compare your results to other users with the same CPU, obviously it's a system comparison.
Um yeah, it's a system comparison, but it's not a system benchmark. Comparing to others with the same cpu allows you to see how different vidcards would affect your video performance.

Quote:
The sound tests do impact score. And the CPU tests should aswell, yet trying an exact system spec with another CPU almost 50% faster, the 3dmark scores remain the same.
The sound test does not affect the 3dmark score. And the cpu does not and should not affect it either. The reason is that 3dmark is a vidcard bench, not a system bench. It measure the power of the vidcard in the system, not the total power of the system.

Quote:
It's a bad benchmark. Game engine benchmarks are the only real way of determining performance WHICH MATTERS to the customer, they are going to be playing games, not benchmarks. (unless they are like a few peeps here.. lol)
So you're saying that a vidcard benchmark which successfully measures the vidcard while not being affected by the rest of the system is a bad benchmark? If system performance affected the 3dmark score, that would make it a bad benchmark because it's not made to measure system performance.

Me thinks you've gotten a few wires crossed about what 3dmark03 is all about...
__________________
When the AI takes over I bet they will use ATi cards to render the matrix. MrNasty
ZoinKs! is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 08:24 AM   #123
zakelwe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 768
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by nVidi0t
Actually, If I disable my sound card, I gain close to 100fps

I'm sorry guys if I got my facts wrong with 3dmark. My conclusion still stands that it's a poor benchmark from my own testing seeing that system performance barely effects the 3dmark score, but I was unaware that 3dmark only scored systems by the four tests only. I dont have the pro version so I was under the impession that all tests had to run for scoring criteria.
Admitting you are wrong .. that means you a nice nvidiot and not a nasty fanAtic

Have a nice day

Regards

Andy
zakelwe is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 08:24 AM   #124
Nemesis77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by nVidi0t
About the sound tests, It affects the score because it records framerates based on the hit caused by 3d sound being processed by your Audio processor. So audio tests CLEARLY affect your overall score
Sure there are tests that measure the performance of the audio. But those tests are NOT part of the final score. The first four games determine the score, the other tests just provide you with extra info on your system (including audio), but they do not affect the final score one way or the other.
Nemesis77 is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 08:27 AM   #125
nVidi0t
Quad Damage
 
nVidi0t's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: San Fancisco. CA
Posts: 1,569
Send a message via ICQ to nVidi0t
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Nemesis77
Sure there are tests that measure the performance of the audio. But those tests are NOT part of the final score. The first four games determine the score, the other tests just provide you with extra info on your system (including audio), but they do not affect the final score one way or the other.

As I mentioned, I was not aware of that. I assumed because the tests were compulsory in the non Pro version, that they all affected the score.
__________________
System: Intel Core 2 e6600 @ 3.6ghz (450*8) @ 1.475v | Koolance Exos 2 Water Cooler | 4096Mb Mushkin ASCENT 8500 @ 2.1v @ 1160Mhz| Asus P5k Deluxe P35 'bearlake' 804bios | PC Power & Cooling Silencer 850W| BFG 8800GT OC2 675Mhz | 150GB WD Raptor X | Seagate Barracuda 250GB SATA | Lian Li V2000 PC2 Case | Pioneer DL Burner | Creative Sound Blaster X-FI FATAL1TY FPS | Dell 2707WFP 27" LCD | Windows Vista Ultimate | Sennheiser HD-590 Prestige/Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones w/ Emmeline Hornet Amp | Razer Deathadder | Razer tarantula Keyboard |
nVidi0t is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 08:46 AM   #126
Bert
a+d(L.N)+s(N.H)^n
 
Bert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Blue Circle
Posts: 69
Default The solution

This heated discussion is leading nowhere, is it? How about a different perspective?

To me it looks like NVIDIA is indeed cheating in the benchmark, but for a good reason:
  • NVIDIA's goal is to sell boards
  • People buy boards because of performance
  • People think benchmarks represent game performance
  • NVIDIA makes the benchmark represent game performance (*)
Of course, NVIDIA should have stated so. Looking at all the real game benchmarks, nobody can say the new FX is a bad board. It's roughly on par with ATI's latest, give or take.

But do people care? No, they just look at benchmark scores. That is the real problem here.

The solution? Do not use benchmarks or canned demos provided publically. Record your own! If every testing site would use their own pre-recorded sequence for a game, no IHV could fake performance. They wouldn't have to fake it, too.

(*) A decent game would have drawn that expensive sky last to save on fillrate. IHVs know how to optimize for their architectures, and they do all to let developers know.
Bert is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 08:49 AM   #127
brute
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 17
Send a message via ICQ to brute Send a message via Yahoo to brute
Default

I think there's alot of n'vidiots here who Don't understand the article. Let me reword that article in English for the nubs.
The Nubs here seem to think that as long as they don't SEE any flaw's in the picture theres no big deal in cheating to make the performance higher. Well the whole point of 3dmark is to give a true bench mark of what is in view or what Is "Not" in View.

Becuase if that was a real Game and you had to go off "the rail" to go some where else. you would see everything as you would in a normal game. So cheating the program through driver tweaking to make 3d Mark03 run faster says absolutly Nothing about the FX. Becuase what if you had to go some where thats not in view at that time. R0fl...
Now let's get a bit nasty.
I am sure if ATI cheated to make 3d Mark03 run faster, the score would probably be double the FX's. But ATI doesn't need to Cheat. They pack enough power to man handle 3d mark while Nvidia lifts up the peti-goat to cheat on Da' old "husband" (Us... the consumer.) Thinking one would never find out.

The only thing worse then Nvidia cheating to create a Sensless score that means absolutly nuthing.., is lying and saying its a big.. hehe as one posted before,

"a fortunate bug on nvidia's behalf? "

LOL, i don't think so. Like i said, the only thing worse then a cheater, is a liar. making nvidia 3 time loser, once for the 8 month NEWER FX getting owned by an 8 month OLDER card (the ati radeon 9700 Pro) then cheating.... and now lying... what next???

Seems to me they were doing Good, untill they got 3dfx staff working for them on the GFFX, as nvidia cleary stated in a press convention in los angeles (the FX comes from 3dFX)

This is hilarious sh!t and I cant wait to see what kind of medicine ATI has for the 5900 when Doom3 is officially released as well Half-Life .


Good Day
brute is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 08:59 AM   #128
phial
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptNKILL
I dont have enough time to read that article right now, but as Ive said before:

IF I CANT *SEE* THE PROBLEM, I DONT GIVE A DAMN IF THEY ARE CHEATING OR NOT.

Speed is speed. Unless my picture looks like crap, I'll take speed over fairness any day.

you have absolutely no idea how a video card works do you ? ok now go waste your money... gooood doggy


serioulsy, i dont understand how pepole can argue about what they do not know




dude, you WILL see this when you pay extra for a card thats supposed to be faster, but isnt


ok.. determining what isnt supposed to be rendered takes up processing time yes? more than you think. and by eliminating the need for the GFFX to calculate this, its given the appearance of a speed boost.

meanwhile, other cards, like ATI's, or Kyros still have to calculate this on the fly JUST LIKE THEY WOULD HAVE TO IN GAMES. theres absolutely no way for a game to predict wat direction your going to look when playing, so the video card responds as it happens and changes its culling.....

UNDERSTAND?
phial is offline  

Old 05-15-03, 09:04 AM   #129
Hanners
Elite Bastard
 
Hanners's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 984
Default Re: The solution

Quote:
Originally posted by Bert
To me it looks like NVIDIA is indeed cheating in the benchmark, but for a good reason...
Cheating for a good reason... Whatever next?

Perhaps nVidia should burn down ATi headquarters to help out all those poor, confused consumers. After all, it would be arson, but for a good reason...
__________________
Owner / Editor-in-Chief - Elite Bastards
Hanners is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 09:05 AM   #130
brute
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 17
Send a message via ICQ to brute Send a message via Yahoo to brute
Default

>>>>>>>>meanwhile, other cards, like ATI's, or Kyros still have to calculate this on the fly JUST LIKE THEY WOULD HAVE TO IN GAMES. theres absolutely no way for a game to predict wat direction your going to look when playing, so the video card responds as it happens and changes its culling.....

UNDERSTAND?<<<<<<<<<


Heheheheh, i tried explaining it to him too. Hes the kinna kid that goes 2/20 in CS LOLOLOL. so i wouldnt worry about him too much.
brute is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 09:08 AM   #131
brute
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 17
Send a message via ICQ to brute Send a message via Yahoo to brute
Default Re: Re: The solution

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
Cheating for a good reason... Whatever next?

Perhaps nVidia should burn down ATi headquarters to help out all those poor, confused consumers. After all, it would be arson, but for a good reason...
L0FL!!!! Sooooo True
brute is offline  
Old 05-15-03, 09:08 AM   #132
Behemoth
radeon 9800 pro
 
Behemoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Darkness Falls
Posts: 841
Default

i think nvidia screw the 3DMark for a few good reasons:

. 3DMark never represents real game performances of different game engines.
. nobody wants the 3DMark optimization code in the driver, except 3DMark lovers
. nvidia cant stop people doing unfair comparison from highly 3DMark optimized video card
. futuremark is now too much a interference in the game industry that it hampers the development of new technology
Behemoth is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need Help Installing NVIDIA Tesla M2070Q in Linux RHEL5 Ferianto85 NVIDIA Linux 0 05-18-12 08:35 PM
Rumor regarding lack of 680 availability ViN86 Rumor Mill 6 05-09-12 04:48 PM
NVIDIA could rule if they really wanted to Vid_craze NVIDIA GeForce 7, 8, And 9 Series 25 08-16-02 05:24 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.